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Meat Heals: An Autoimmune Disease Case for the Carnivore Diet ft. Mikhaila Peterson || #92

(gentle whooshing) (upbeat music) – I don’t know if you experienced this but I experienced like, my
feelings of hunger changed. Even just dropping salad, I stopped being like having this kind of
famished starving feeling. And I just got cognitively hungry. So I’d just slower, and I
wouldn’t be able to bring up words and I’d get kinda like brain foggy. I’m like oh what’s going on. Oh I just need to eat more. But I wasn’t like hungry
like I’d been experiencing for the last 25 years. (upbeat music) – Hey all, Geoffrey Woo on the Mike again. And welcome to a meaty episode of the HVMN podcast, literally. We can’t get enough of the carnivore diet. It’s fascinating how such a strict diet consisting of just meat, salt and water has garnered such a wide
following in such a short time. This week, we welcome on Mikhaila Peterson to discuss how eating only meat healed her autoimmune
symptoms and depression. Some conversation highlights
include a discussion on the common critique
that carnivore works purely because it’s an elimination diet, how to incorporate the diet
into a sustainable lifestyle, and a discussion of
fitness versus nutrition and what should come first. If you’re tuning in via
audio, remember to hit that subscribe button for weekly episodes. For folks on YouTube, please subscribe and hit that bell to
enable post notifications. Without further ado,
let’s get right to it. Mikhaila, thanks for
coming on the program. – Thanks for inviting me. – Absolutely so, let’s talk about the carnivore diets. And to give you some context,
I’ve really approached the carnivore diet from
a performance interest. How do we get healthy people
to perform even better. And I know that for your person journey with the carnivore diet, it’s been from a different perspective
or a different approach, coming from more of a
therapeutic approach. – Yeah of how to not die. (laughing) – So for folks that don’t know your story, what’s the high level synopsis
here, as we set the context. – Super high level, I was diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid
Arthritis when I was seven, and it got severe enough,
even on multiple immune suppressants, I ended up with
a hip and ankle replacement when I was 17. I was diagnosed with severe
depression in grade five. I started taking SSRIs for that. I was diagnosed with,
well it wasn’t diagnosed until I was 21 but Idiopathic Hypersomnia. So that was excessive
fatigue and got to a point where I was sleeping about 17 hours a day, and never waking up properly. I had other symptoms,
rashes, skin problems, itching, everywhere. Severe brain fog. So I was, I just was getting
sicker and sicker and sicker. And I was on more and more medications. And I started looking into diet when I was 22 or 23. I’m just like I had never really heard of
the whole ketogenic community or paleo community or anything. I just kinda, I came
across some research about gluten disrupting your gut
and kinda went down that path and then coincidentally tried somewhat of an elimination diet,
which was like coincidentally pretty low carb and had a
lot of success that way. – And this is all self exploration. Like sort of like your own N=1 biohacking, if you will just–
– Yeah. I tried everything
especially for the fatigue. I went down like every nootropic. I tried any supplement
I could get my hands on before I tried diet, and diet was, well I had most success with diet. So I did low carb for about a year with a lot of success but not nearly
where I needed to get to. And I had a baby, and eventually ended up doing what I’m doing now,
which is a carnivore diet but specifically like really
strictly beef, salt and water. – So the most pure of of purists here. – Yup. – So how long have you
been on the carnivore diet and subjectively, what
are the characteristics that you’re seeing. – So I started the carnivore diet. I went from really low carb to just meat. I realized even the carby
vegetables I was eating were bothering me. So I went to meat and
solid, and I was doing that for about a year. And so I went from eating greens to just meats, December 2017. So it hasn’t quite been a year. – [Geoffrey] Okay. – And I went through, like
you probably talked about it on other podcasts, but I went
through the adaptation period even though I was just, like I was already I’d been in ketosis for years and, so it wasn’t a ketosis switch,
it was switching to all meat. But I saw pretty significant improvements within the first week with
joint pain I was still having and body itching. So the low carb, with low carb, I saw
improvements in like weight, and I went off of my antidepressants and I went off of all medication. So I had already seen
a lot of improvements doing like a ketogenic, very
low carb diet, high fat. But after my pregnancy, I started to well, during my pregnancy, I
started to experience my autoimmune problems
again, to a lesser degree. But they were still there and so I knew something was going on. And when I finally cut out the salad, yeah but the itching went
away by day, like three. And my joint pain started to get better around the same period of time, so like within days of
cutting out the vegetables. And then, my anxiety that had resurfaced, that took about six weeks. And then I started getting
a lot more benefits at about the five month period. So, man well, it’s changed it’s changed a lot. – Yeah, and I know that and in some of your previous
conversations and podcasts, we’re starting to start to piece together why carnivore diets seem to be working. I know people are putting
on hypotheses that one, you know it’s especially
helpful for people with autoimmune issues, or
people with food allergies. Some people are throwing out the notion that it’s similar to a ketogenic
diet, but more restrictive. Some are proposing that it’s more of a caloric restriction phenomenon. As someone you living through it, how do you sort of and I’m sure that you’ve
also trying to understand it in a more rigorous way. How are you piecing together
all the different hypotheses on you know why this is
working so well for you? – It’s changing. So when I first started it, I was very skeptical
and my theory was well, people who switch over to
carnivore are seeing improvements because they’re just
coincidentally cutting out all the foods that are irritating them. So they don’t have to be that restrictive but they’re getting
rid of grains and sugar and processed food and
soy and potentially dairy, depending on the carnivore diet. But then I tried to reintroduce
foods a couple of times and they were pretty
like benign foods, like organic olives, which are like
very very very very low sugar and I had an autoimmune response to that. A couple of times during this period, I’ve had pepper accidentally and I’ve had an immune response to that. So my theory started off with
it was an avoidance thing. I don’t think it has anything to do with a calorie restriction because I think I actually started eating more calories when I switched over, just from the fat I’m getting. I think, like my best theory is that we’ve, and I think it’s
similar to Sean Baker’s, we’ve evolved to eat this type of animal and that’s
what we’re best suited for. And perhaps, like obviously,
there’s something wrong with me, or I wanted
have this huge responses to any other food. But I think maybe there’s
some genetic component, and possibly a microbiome element, like from being born through a
C-section and maybe years of antibiotic use. And I know you inherit
a lot of your microbiome from your mother. So I’m assuming, you know
if you take antibiotics, then your kid is potentially gonna have a less diverse microbiome. So maybe generationally over, I just got screwed over from that. But right now, I’m thinking, this is probably the best diet for
us, evolutionarily would and I respond terribly to plant toxins. That’s my best guess. – Interesting. Yeah I think the microbiome
angles interesting. Although the microbiome does shift quite like reasonably quickly
in response of diet. So I know that when I was sort of shifting in the carnivore diet,
the first week or so, there’s definitely an adaptation period. And I think part two is that we don’t eat a diet
you have the microbiome be able to digest fiber, right. So if you’re just
removing, and sloughing off that kind of microbiome, you would ostensibly see a
shift in your microbiome. – Oh yeah, for sure. I actually did microbiome testing throughout, like even
before I started diet, so it’s been pretty interesting. – Yeah, I’m actually
curious to hear about that. That’s what our audience
is very interested, in terms of just the tracking and the quantitative measures here. When I first got my microbiome tested and I went through a naturopath, I wasn’t missing any healthy strains, but it was all slightly slightly less in quantity
than he had wanted to see. I had strep but not badly enough for it to be a concern. Yeast did show up and it was high, so that was a concern. So I definitely had a problem there. I had a couple of strains that weren’t, I didn’t have anything pathogenic, but there were a couple
strains that were iffy, and then my overall microbiome just was, there was less whatever. There were fewer bacteria then were ideal. So that was on the standard, basically standard American diet. Then I went low carb, and the, I didn’t have pathogenic bacteria, but the ones that were not ideal, so strep was in that category, they went away. So the next test I did, that
was gone and yeast was gone. So, and I felt way better on low carb. I had lost a lot of bloating. Like I lost weight. I went off all my
medication but my responses to bad food reintroductions
were so ridiculously horrible that, well, it wasn’t sustainable. It also, the other reason I think it might have something to
do with microbiome is because I was doing fine on the low carb, like really, really well as long as I wasn’t introducing any foods, and then when I got pregnant, the foods I was able to
tolerate all disappeared. So I started reacting to like salad and sweet potatoes and safe, what I thought were all my safe foods. – So food sensitivity went even, you got super sensitive. – It was like every plant thing, ’cause I was doing fine. I was even eating, like I wasn’t in ketosis the whole time when I was doing low carb. I was eating apples sometimes, and pears, and I was still feeling great as long as I didn’t
introduce anything wrong. And then, yeah, as soon as
I found out I was pregnant, I lost my ability to tolerate
whatever I was eating. And it turns out during pregnancy, you do lose diversity
with your microbiome, so I think something changed there, and then after the
pregnancy it never came back even though I was still doing, I was doing meat and salad at that point. I still couldn’t tolerate the salad. – [Geoffrey] Interesting. – So then I’ve done the testing. I got my microbiome tested
on the carnivore diet, and now basically everything they test for for that test is gone. Like none of the bacteria that digest any type of sugars are there. So I look severely depleted in everything, but all my symptoms are gone. – Which stands to reason, right? ‘Cause you’re diet is very, very different from what they would expect
in the standard American diet or standard Western diet. So that’s almost to be expected. I think that one thing that I
think is interesting is that it sounds like a lot of your
symptoms have improved a lot, but you’re very, very sensitive now to new or a reintroduction of food. Why do you think that is? Do you think that because you’re
so refined on your diet now that it’s more of a
management of symptoms? But it sounds like your sensitivity has – A 100%. A 100% is, so it’s management to the point where I don’t have symptoms, but if I do anything wrong then all my symptoms come back. So it’s definitely, it’s definitely management, yeah. – Yeah. I guess where I’m
going with that is that when people that are type 2 diabetic go on a ketogenic diet, often times you’ll reverse
the requirement of insulin. People’s blood markers improve, their fasting insulin, their hemoglobin A1C goes down, all the typical markers you wanna see. But the skeptics are saying,
“Well, if you reintroduce sugar into their diet, are they
still very insulin resistant?” And all that story where it’s like, okay, that’s a fair statement. – It’s a fair statement, but I mean, that’s like saying, if
you stop eating a poison, that like I think that’s like saying, if you stop eating a poison, and then you reintroduce it
and you’re still poisoned, like yes, that’s what happens. To me, anyway. So yeah, I don’t particularly take that very, very seriously. I don’t think I’ve solved whatever is causing an immune response, and my first theory was
I had the same theory that most people in the paleo
community have where it’s heal your gut and then you’ll be able to introduce more foods, and I could never do that. I’d cut out anything inflammatory. I tried taking probiotics,
which I can’t tolerate at all, – [Geoffrey] Really? – And I didn’t eat. Yeah yeah, and I’ve tried
a whole bunch of different- – Like you just take some probiotic pills and you just have GI issues. – Oh, yeah, and I didn’t
even just do pills, ’cause I was like, “Maybe
it’s the cellulose capsule.” So I found a company
that does pure powder. I tried, what is it, is it
L-lactate or D-lactate free. I tried really specific ones, and I tried the most
minute amount in water, or I tried making my own sauerkraut, and I respond badly,
worse to green cabbage than purple cabbage so I was making purple cabbage sauerkraut and taking a really tiny but of the liquid. I tried with the most
ridiculously small amounts, and every time my body
was just like, “No.” So originally I thought
it was a gut issue, but if I get pure medication injected or intravenously, I have an
immune response to that too. So it’s definitely an
immune system problem. It’s not a gut problem. I was hoping it was a gut problem, ’cause I thought maybe
I’d get less sensitive, but it seems to be an
immune system problem. – Yeah, I mean, if you’re
injecting intravenously. – Then yeah.
– I mean, that, and you’re still responding, then– – Yeah, it’s way less bad that
way, but it still happens. – And then from performance side, I’m curious in that aspect. Shawn Baker is talking about still setting world
records as a master rower. I’m curious on that aspect. It sounds like obviously a lot
of the therapeutic benefits that you were seeking are there, a lot of the symptoms
that you’ve had are gone. I’m curious to hear about
your anecdotal experiments, experiences around. Do you feel like you’re performing better? In which dimensions are
you performing better? Are you pretty biohacker-y
with blood markers, cholesterol, all of that stuff? How deep into the biomarkers are you? – When I first started off
I was more interested in it, especially when I had
this chronic fatigue, because I couldn’t wake up. And then I started looking at nootropics and seeing if any of
that would wake me up, and then I started taking Adderall, and man, that woke me up so (laughing) I kind of got into it then, but since I’ve gone over
to the all beef diet and all my problems have resolved, I haven’t been as interested. I did get my blood work done
and put it up on the blog, mostly because other
people were interested and I knew I’d be asked about it. So I do have that, but no. I’ve been monitoring whether
I stay in ketosis or not, but that’s about it. – Do just a finger stick? – Yeah. – [Geoffrey] Okay. – I haven’t gone, I’m
consistently in ketosis. – I’m just curious. What concentration
ketones are you typically leveling out as? – I went to, I guess it was
Paleo f(x) a couple months, I guess it was like six months ago. And they have the breath test, which seems to be interesting. – An acetone meter, yeah. – Oh, so it’s an acetone meter. Okay. That was measuring at five, which I think is a lot, right? Again, I’m not as into this, but I feel like five was a lot, and that was pretty consistent. – Yeah, I mean, acetone
markers will be related– – I didn’t think it was acetone, whatever they had at Paleo f(x), but in order to breathe into
it does it have to be acetone? – Yeah. Breath meters typically measure acetone. – Okay that’s possible. – Yeah, so beta-hydroxybutyrate
and acetoacetate will be metabolized by the blood. There will be some trace
amounts that is urinated out, but acetone is typically
what one would measure with a breath meter. But I mean, but I think there is some work trying to correlate acetone
levels to blood BHB levels, but it sounds like you are definitely breathing out acetone, which is a signal of ketosis. – Yeah. The interesting thing is
I think I was actually in deeper ketosis when
I was including salad. I was using, it wasn’t a great test. I was just using the urine sticks, which I know aren’t a great
test but they showed up at in a deeper level when
I would have the salad, which I had all my symptoms
so it wasn’t useful, but I think my level of
ketosis might have been deeper. – Interesting. I wonder if that could be because if you’re going full
protein your macro ratio is higher on protein,
but when you had salad you had a lot of fiber. – A lot of, yeah. – But the macro ratio might overweight fat a little bit more. So what do you eat? So meat, salt, water, but the thing that’s hard for me, as for folks that have
been following along. I did a three week carnivore block and then cycled off of it, and now I’m entering
another block of carnivore. The hardest thing for me is having to just shop for
steaks all the time, ’cause I just go through meat so much, and I think the first time around I don’t think I ate enough meat. You need to eat two to four pounds a day, essentially, of meat, especially if you’re doing a lot of exercise, which I do a lot of training, So curious to hear how you manage it just from a lifestyle perspective, ’cause it’s not, it’s not, it’s not simple as being able to go out to like a Chipotle or
something and get a burrito. You got to prepare. – Yeah, and I can’t just I know a lot of people on the diet go to fast food places
and just get patties, but I’m so allergic to everything else that I don’t risk that. I switched over to chuck roast
recently instead of rib eye, which is a third of the price and tastes almost just as good fried. So I’ve just been getting three pound chuck roasts
and then cutting them up and then frying them during the day. I’m fortunate enough
that I work from home, so I can cook whenever I want to cook. But my day basically looks like, like I’ll get up in the morning. I’ll have a chuck steak, and then – Like a pound?
– it depends how much– – Like half a pound? – Less than a pound. More than half a pound. I end up eating about two pounds a day if I’m doing a lot of work,
and even if it’s not physical. If it’s just on the computer and it requires a lot of brain power, then I’ll have to eat a little bit more, but it ends up being between, just under two pounds and
two and a half pounds a day. – And then when you said you’re frying, are you frying with- – Tallow. – Okay, I was gonna, okay. So just pure beef, ’cause I’ll incorporate a little bit of butter
in there just to like add a little bit of a richness, but you’re using beef tallow as your oil. – So it’s all beef, and I don’t even eat
very much salt anymore. I was eating salt, and
everyone tells you to eat salt so I was eating a lot of salt, and I was excessively thirsty all the time. I was drinking like four
liters of water a day, but my digestion was kinda screwy. But you know, kinda screwy. So I cut out all the salt
just to see what would happen. Because my theory was if my electrolytes were gonna get unbalanced then I was going to get muscle cramps. And nothing happened except that everything tasted like nothing (Geoffrey laughing) for like a month. But yeah, so I don’t even
eat very much salt anymore. It’s mostly beef and water, and now I only drink maybe
like a liter and a half a day or two liters instead of four. So that’s where I’m at now. Mostly chuck roast. – Interesting. And then you mentioned you
had your blood panel done. What are the highlights there? I guess most people would be
interested in LDL cholesterol, HDL cholesterol, triglycerides. So this is in millimoles per liter. LDL, 1.75. HDL, 1.37, and triglycerides, 0.66. – Interesting, so millimoles is the metric unit. In America we typically use
milligrams per deciliter, so it’s a times 18. – Not particularly convenient. – I mean, they seem pretty reasonable. I’m just doing some mental math here. In terms of relatively low LDL, you have a nice HDL, LDL ratio. It’s not too crazy. – Yeah, yeah and I mean,
I’d never tested it before, and I’m young. So my doctor was wondering why I wanted to test
it in the first place. But yeah, everything that he tested showed up completely normal. – Did your doctor know that have you’ve just been eating
steaks for the last year? – I explained it (Geoffrey
laughing) when I told him I wanted to test for cholesterol. – Yeah. Did you blow his mind? Did he think that– – Well, he’s been following me since I needed a hip and ankle replacement, so he’s seen me really, really ill on a lot of medication, so he’s not entirely sure what to think. But he also saw me cut out grains, and then I was coming to him and going, “Oh, my God, I’m allergic to almonds. “Oh, my God, I’m allergic to soy. “What’s going on?” And I went to see a whole
bunch of immunologists because I was having these food reactions, and they were basically like a lot of these weren’t
showing up as true allergies. Turns out I did develop
an allergy to nuts, but soy wasn’t showing
up as a true allergy, anything like that. So he’s been watching this, and he was okay with the no grains. He said, “People don’t need grains,” and now he’s saying, “Look, there’s a lot
of evidence that maybe “high carb diets aren’t good for people, “but I’d be a lot more comfortable “if you were eating fruit and vegetables.” (Geoffrey laughing) I said, “Well, “no, but I still want to
test the cholesterol.” – Yeah. I think that’s one of the things that just has opened my eyes a little bit around just being open to the community experience. I think some of the same critiques that people had with fasting or ketogenic diets is happening with the same kind of pattern
with the carnivore diet. And again, if you look
back back of why fasting seems kind of insane now, but cultures have fasted
for thousands of years. The three meal a day system
is really an artifact of an industrial revolution where you had factory labor shifts. And then that got me thinking. Why is fiber such an
important part of the diet? What is that story? And then you realize that
there is Mr. Kellogg- – Oh, no.
– Who wanted to. – Yeah. – sell more corn flake with a
lot of fiber content in there. I’m curious from the
historical perspective, but also to speak to the broader
social logical phenomenon. I mean, what do you make of the whole, I would say, hype or fad
cycle around carnivore? I mean, you’ve been
profiled in a number of magazine articles around
being a carnivore icon, if you will. What do you make of it in terms of the historical
path of these diet changes? – Historically, I think I think there were a lot of
scientists that did things that they shouldn’t have
done nutrition-wise, and I don’t think any of them
realized the repercussions that that would have. So I think mostly it was
just people not doing what they should have been doing. So I don’t think there
was some big conspiracy, but there were scientists that shouldn’t have
published certain things or shouldn’t have not
published certain things, and that did screw over generations, because now we’re eating wrong. So historically it’s
a pretty big disaster, but I don’t think anybody was thinking that it would be this much of a disaster. As for the response now, I can understand where people are coming from, because when I was really sick, especially with the depression, I had people come to me
in kind of a snobby manner and say, “Well, have you looked at diet “or tried exercising?” And it’s like I had looked
at diet and tried exercising, and I was too sick to exercise, and I had tried not eating sugar. That was basically what I did. I went on a candida diet one time, and I went really strictly no-sugar, but I didn’t know what do. So it’s not like I was
surviving off of junk food and I was still really sick, so when people came to me and said, “Have you looked at diet,”
it was mostly insulting. But the idea, like even
when I heard Sean Baker. That’s how I heard of the carnivore diet. Even when I saw him, even though I knew I was reacting to the plants I was eating I still thought, “Well, there must be “a different explanation than “this is how we’re supposed to be eating.” So when there are a lot of
negative articles about it, I get it. It’s really strange, and
we’ve been told for decades that certain things are healthy, so and people are very
attached to their foods. And certain foods are super addictive that people don’t realize,
so you can kinda see how people get that emotional
attachment to things. So I don’t blame people
for being upset about it. It’s pretty strange, and it’s
strange that it works so well. And it’s the most ridiculous
sounding diet that there is, so I get it. – Yeah, and then I think
one of our audience members had an interesting question where this carnivore diet has been tied towards different other sub-communities. It’s been associated with the Alt-Right. I know a bunch of Bitcoin
crypto enthusiasts are all Bitcoin carnivore maximalists. (Mikhaila laughing) I think the Alt-Right, sort of, I guess, the white nationalist
associations are even more, I guess, dangerous or cynical. What do you make of that
kind of association? I mean, to me, it’s just
like, that’s ridiculous. People are just eating stuff. – It’s ridiculous. I think the whole Alt-Right thing, and I might be wrong, (Geoffrey laughing) but because my dad’s been
associated with the Alt-Right and then he went on Rogan and
said he’s on a carnivore diet, I could be wrong, but I think
some of it came from that, because then it’s like,
oh, Jordan Peterson, the Alt-Right person, only eats meat. Now eating meat is Alt-Right. Maybe it originated somewhere else, but I’m sure that didn’t help. And obviously that’s insane. A lot of people, there’s two camps of people, really, who go on this, and
one of them are like me, and they’re at the end of their rope, and they’re half dead and desperate, and the other half are generally fairly bright people who are
very open and interested in becoming faster, smarter, or better at whatever they’re doing. So yeah, I think trying to associate it with certain groups of people is just another way to insult it. It’s funny that the cryptocurrency
guys are getting into it, but I think a lot of these people are very smart and very open. So why not give it a shot? – There’s definitely some correlation towards openness to new ideas
and trying things, right? – Definitely, yeah. – One thing that I thought was interesting from your Joe Rogan conversation was that there was this big argument around just exercising. You shouldn’t be a softy. Just go out and exercise and
make your day better versus I think what you were
kind of arguing was that, look, there’s just some malaise that someone has if they’re not eating the right diet, and you can’t just tell
them that they’re lazy. I think that’s an interesting story, and I think the added nuance
is that there’s a lot of just core science, especially
in exercise science, showing that having that mental
resilience or mental energy is a big driver of how you work out. So curious to hear if you have any added discussion or thoughts around that area. – Well, it was funny, because later in the Joe Rogan podcast
he said that if he eats, I think it was ice cream,
then he’s stuck on the couch. (Geoffrey laughing) And my point was, there are people who are that’s just their life. So before I went low carb,
when I started taking Adderall I could go to the gym,
but before the Adderall, I didn’t have any energy. I couldn’t do school. I couldn’t wake up. I couldn’t drive. I was falling asleep driving all the time, so if you’re at that point,
and not even to that point. There are other people
who aren’t at that point, but it still doesn’t mean
you have enough energy to go to the gym, and I think some people who are in that camp, it might be harder on their bodies to get more stressed out, because going to the gym
does stress your body out. And there are obvious benefits, especially if you’re doing well, but if you’re not doing well then that might not be a good idea. And I think I was in that category. So when I was talking to Joe Rogan I was really mentioning there
are a lot of sick people, especially in North America, and a lot of overweight people, and I don’t think that that
is an exercise problem. I think that that’s a diet problem, and I think that naturally
as soon as you’re healthy you’re going to want to exercise. When I switched over to this diet I could feel the urge to run, and that just came eventually. So it was like energy that I
wanted to spend doing things, but I never had that before. So I think, but obviously
in order to push yourself to go to the gym, it does take, you know- – Willpower, discipline, right. – It does take willpower, for sure, and some people are going to have that more naturally than other people. And you do have to force
yourself to get to the gym, but there are a lot of people who need to fix their diet first. – Yeah, I agree. I think, of course, there’s a lot of value in willpower and discipline, but I think more and
more people are seeing, and researchers Tim
Noakes, Samuele Mercora are showing that the brain and the mood state that one’s brain is dictates how much energy and
how much performance one has in terms of being able to exercise. So I think that one shouldn’t
discount people by saying, “Hey, my diet is so messed up “that I’m just not in a good place “where I can even go out and exercise,” even if you have so much
willpower and discipline. Your body is just in a broken place. So I think we need to be
thoughtful about, okay, let’s not just overly criticize
people to not work out. We should be understanding that there might be some
other factors there. – For sure. And there are also people who have an unbelievable amount of willpower, and are working out, and
are still overweight. I’ve been speaking to a number of generally middle-aged men that run. They’re like, “I don’t
know what’s going on. “I can’t lose this weight, “and I’m running 10 miles a day.” And it’s like, those aren’t people who are out of shape. Those are people who are
having food problems. – Right, so where do you
think this goes next? I think there’s a lot of interest in the community to look at randomized control trials,
doing more rigorous studies. I mean I think, within
any science phenomenon, there’s clearly enough signal
here that there’s something interesting being observed
through all these N=1s and all these case studies. Do you have some sense in, I know Sean was mentioning
in our conversation that they’re looked at researchers
are looking to do some trials. What are you sensing in
broader community here? – Trials would be great. I don’t think testing this, now that we have all
these anecdotal reports, I don think it’s more
dangerous testing this out to treat things than it is testing a pharmaceutical medication. So obviously it should
be looked at seriously. The doctors in Hungary are
doing a pretty good job, so that would be something
that would be interesting here. And yeah, we obviously need more research, and we need more doctors on board at least to stir up interest. I’ve been running a, it’s not a study yet, I’ve just been running kind
of a grab for information off of my blog that I started before I started the carnivore diet, and it basically is a list of kind of random autoimmune
symptoms that people experience sometimes. Like, everything’s on there. Bleeding gums, floaters, mouth ulcers, dry skin. Just a random bunch of information, and I have, I think 10,000
people have filled it out, and it also has diet questions on there, so like vegetarian, carnivore, dairy-free, gluten-free, grain-free, keto. So I’m going to do something with that, look through piles of
information sometime next year. But yeah. Randomized controlled
studies would be great. – I imagine that you didn’t find yourself when you’re seven thinking
that you’d be behind a thought leader in the
carnivore community. I don’t imagine that you thought that you would be spending
a lot of time doing this. – God, no. – But now that you’re in this position, where do you see yourself positioning, and what do you want to actually do given this platform now? – I don’t know. I’ve been trying to figure that out. I was really not into diet. My mom was always
dragging me to naturopaths before I looked into
diet, and I just hated it ’cause nothing ever helped. And I don’t know. I was one of those
people who hated people, like I thought gluten-free was a fad. It made me angry, so that’s
why I can kind of understand where some of these
people are coming from, because it did used to make me angry. I’m not entirely sure why. Just the idea of diet. So I definitely didn’t expect myself to be in this kind of situation. I think what I’m going to do
is I interrupted my degree. So I dropped out of psychology because I was half dead, and then I started taking
Adderall and thought, “Oh, my God. If I don’t figure
out what’s wrong with me “I think I’m going to die,” ’cause I was really, really, really sick. So I went back to university, and then I had a baby. So I have a year and a
half left of my degree. I went back for a bachelor of science, so I’m going to finish that next year. And then I don’t know
what I’ll do after that. Maybe, I’d be interested to
just have the nutrition title. I’m not going to agree with
anything they’re teaching, so I’m not sure if there’s a
point in going back to school. I’m writing a book. That’s gonna come out,
well, the deadline’s in May, so it’ll come out some time after that, but that’s the “Carnivore
Diet How-to Guide”. – Exciting. – Yeah and I’m doing consults,
mostly people just asking me how many times a day I eat. (Geoffrey laughing) That’s basically it, but I’m trying to put all that information in a book so that people can just go to the book. And recipes, stuff like that. – But it sounds like it’s pretty simple if it’s chuck roast, two pounds a day. – You’d think that, yeah. It is simple, and I can get through, if I just have a 20 minute explanation I can get through a lot of it, but it’s such a dramatically
different way of eating for a lot of people that
they need specifics. And some people go through a pretty horrific transition period, especially if you’re not starting from a ketogenic diet
or a grain-free diet. Going from eating pizza to
only eating meat can be, well some people can’t seem to do it. So I’m trying to figure out a way to make that easier on people. – That’s cool. – It is a simple idea. Yeah just eat meat, but then
they’re like, “How much?” and your feelings of, I don’t
know if you experience this, but I experience, like, my
feelings of hunger changed. Even by just dropping salad, I stopped having this kind of
famished, starving feeling. And I just got cognitively hungry. So I just get slower,
and I wouldn’t be able to bring up words, and I’d
get kind of brain foggy. I’m like, “Oh, what’s going on? “Oh, I just need to eat more.” But I wasn’t hungry like I’d been experiencing
for the last 25 years. – That’s very similar to my experience, as I did a lot of fasting,
or eating keto, or carnivore, where it’s a different sense
of hunger, where it’s not this, I think you just realize there’s a mental state of being hungry
and a physiological need of being hungry, and I think you just get more
attuned to that as you’re experimenting with diet. – Yeah, for sure. So I’m trying to put all that kind of random information
that you learn– – Interesting.
– in a book. The feeling of fullness changed, so instead of feeling
physically unable to eat more it’s just like you have to eat
until you can’t eat anymore. ‘Cause lots of people
when they first start off don’t eat enough. I’m talking to people
who are 6’2″, 6’2″ men, and they’re eating two pounds a day. And they’re like, “I’m tired. “I don’t feel very good,” and it’s like, “You’re hungry.” So you switch over and you don’t even know how much you’re supposed to eat anymore, ’cause our bodies are so confused. So I’m just trying to
squish that all into a book. We’ll see. – Yeah, no, and that’s pretty sensible. And that, I think, was my mistake for my first carnivore block, because it just not easy for
you mentally to realize, okay, I’m eating two rib eye steaks a day. That seems like a lot of food. If you actually count the calories, it’s like low 2,000 calories, and if you’re a larger man
who does a lot of exercise, you want 2,500, 3,000 calories a day. So you are just under-caloric, and that’s what I think was
some of the challenge I had initially transitioning in. You don’t think you
need to count calories, but you need to count calories to make sure you’re
having enough calories. It’s like the opposite problem. – Yeah, people seem to, they cut out all the extra food and just eat the amount of
meat they were eating before if it was that meat-heavy diet, and then it’s not enough food. Yeah, yeah. Pretty interesting. – And then how’s the
consult stuff going on? I remember reading some articles where people thought
it was interesting that you don’t have a professional
background in nutrition, but clearly you’re able to provide value for people to come to
you to ask for advice. Just to hear, how do you
respond to the haters, and what does a typically, what does a typical experience look like when you’re helping some
of these clients out? – So respond to the haters. It did stress me out at the beginning. So I was like, “What if somebody sues me?” But then I did it anyway, and I talked to a whole bunch of people. And everybody I, it’s pretty, the calls are interesting. They’re kind of similar, so I’m less stressed out now because it’s mostly people who have
decided to try the diet and have a bunch of questions. So it’s not like, I
think people were worried that somebody with some horrible disorder is gonna come to me and I’m going to go, “Oh, it’s treatable with this diet,” which isn’t what’s happening. What’s happening is there are people, and they say, “I have these problems. “I’ve decided to try the diet. “How bad is the adaptation
period gonna be? “How much do you eat a day? “How do I cook meat?” A lot of people don’t
know how to cook meat. Where do I go? How do I make it cheaper? A lot of it’s that, and a lot of people just want to talk to somebody who’s eating this way and thriving. Just wanna be able to see it. – So you’re not giving medical advice. You’re giving practical tips,
essentially, for people. – Yeah, yeah, yeah. – Yeah. That makes a lot of sense I think. Yeah I mean it sounds very sensible, and I think we have seen
that in our community where people just want to talk to people that are trying fasting
or trying ketogenic diet, and I think part of it’s just like, “Okay, not a lot of people
around me are doing this. “Who can I talk to?” – Yeah and just isolating,
when you start something. I mean like the keotgenic,
just eliminating anything from your diet
is a bit isolating. Even if you go gluten-free,
you’re gonna get people who come up and tell you you’re a moron. But cutting out everything except for meat is on an entirely
different level, so yeah. They’re isolated and they’re getting hell. And generally they’re
trying to get healthier, and they’re getting hell
from all their friends so they just want somebody to talk to. – Yeah, I think that’s
an interesting aspect. Do you have some good stories around going out with friends
and people are ordering at an Italian restaurant or something. People are getting pasta. How do you respond to that? Do you just ask for a piece of meat? Do you just not eat? What are the social situations? I think that’s like a like a non-obvious question a lot of people don’t think about when you’re actually implementing
this in your lifestyle, ’cause I personally have when I’ve been doing a lot of fasting, I’ve been to dinners where
I’m just drinking water or drinking soda water, and it is a little bit socially strange. So curious to hear about
your anecdotes there, and how do you deal with it, and how do you explain it and all that. – Yeah, the social aspect sucked, I would say, for about a year and a half. This was before, this was when
I was doing really low carb, so I was basically doing a lot of meat and very specific vegetables. So it was really annoying to order out. And at first, I just didn’t go out, which wasn’t a good way to do it, and then I started going out, but it was really anxiety-provoking and I hated being rude. Sometimes they’d serve
me something that like that was just covered in soybean oil. I’m going to be half dead for a month. I can’t eat it. But it felt so rude to tell them that they’d done something wrong and to give it back and things, but now that I’ve been
doing it for a while and now that my anxiety’s completely gone, it doesn’t bother me at all. So when I go out now, I’ll order, and also going to carnivore is actually has made going out a lot easier. Because before, I’d have to go out, I’d order the steak and
then I’d order a salad made with specific ingredients,
which was really annoying. Or specific vegetables. And now it’s like, I want a
steak, like rib eye steak, medium rare, cooked with no oil, grilled, with no seasoning,
absolutely nothing on it. And they’re pretty good. so generally I try and go to steakhouses. So if I’m going out with friends it’s like I’ll go to the steakhouse, otherwise I’ll meet up
afterwards, generally. I do go out. If I get invited to a
dinner party or something, I’ll go and I won’t eat. And people are pretty used to it, and because I’ve successfully and really visibly, clearly treated how sick I was with this diet, I don’t get much hell. Even though they’re like, “That’s weird,” they can still see the difference in me, so there’s not much of an argument. I’m sure it’s more difficult
for people who are, they just suffer from anxiety or they’re just trying to improve things. And so they don’t have
as much of an excuse, like my excuse with I don’t have an autoimmune
disorder anymore. Can you tell? They’re just like, “Yeah, okay. “That’s just Mikhaila.” – Yeah, I think to just
assuage folks out there who are considering it, I
don’t think it’s that serious. People will maybe rib you a little bit, – A little bit. – They don’t actually care if
you’re eating or not eating. – They don’t, they don’t, and you get used to it pretty quickly. At the beginning, especially
if you’re anxious, it was horribly anxiety-provoking, but it doesn’t bother me at all and none of my friends care. – Cool. Any other questions or topics
we should cover at this point? I mean, I think we covered
a broad swath here. So you got the book coming out next year, you got consults, you’re gonna go back and finish off the degree. What else is exciting? I mean, what do you, I
guess raising a newborn is probably a lot of work, as well. What else is on the docket? – I think I’m going to
start a YouTube channel. I keep saying that,
though, and not doing it. So I might have to cut
down on consults and, ’cause I also need time to write a book, and I’m working for my dad and
that takes most of my time. – What do you do for your dad? – I basically manage his life. So it’s, I’m on call. For the last two days I’ve got calls from 4:00 in the morning from
he’s in Sweden or Switzerland. So it’s constant. It’s crazy. So that’s mainly what I’m doing, but then I’m trying to like up, trying to keep my blog up-to-date, and it’s on WordPress,
which is kind of God-awful, so I need to revamp that. So yeah, there’s a lot. I figured out if I use Google Calendar and schedule every slot in my day then I get a lot more done. (Geoffrey laughing) So that’s what I’ve been doing, but so far, no. It’s the, I have this job, the consults, the blog, the book, and then I’m
going to get all that done and go back to school. – While eating carnivore. – Yeah oh yeah. (laughing) – Thanks so much for taking the time to jump on the program. I think it’s really helpful to to see a real story of how this is applied in an everyday person’s life. So thanks for the time,
a fun conversation. – Thanks for having me. – Yeah thank you. Thanks for tuning this week everyone. As always, please send my producer, Zhill Olonan any feedback, or topic or guest suggestions
to [email protected] We read every single
message and work really hard to make this program valuable
and educational for you. Also, don’t forget our
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Randall Smitham



  1. Duc Nguyen Posted on June 27, 2019 at 2:02 pm

    Placebo effects, she experienced so many negative experiences in her life and lot of bullshit thoughts. The redemption could come from understanding her depression and having positive thoughts. Getting sick by eating olives or pepper resumes to organic food? LoL 😂 See you in few decades…

  2. Duc Nguyen Posted on June 27, 2019 at 2:09 pm

    If you want to be strong like a buffalo don’t eat him eat like him period… biggest mammal in land? Elephant, don’t think he understands the problem of deficiency of any vitamins, LoL he only take minerals. Average Human will die without breathing in 3 minutes, 3days without drinking WATER, 30 days without eating. You can be healthy if you take care of these 3 essential things. Don’t think that centuries ago everyone was eating meat 2 times of the day. It was meal of the kings and they were sick…people get sick because of malnutrition, don’t think it exists in rich and modern countries

  3. Gwen Posted on July 2, 2019 at 11:50 am

    Wow! You are describing my reactions. I’ve been low carb for a decade and done pretty well with autoimmune responses on it, but never got completely well. The foods that I think are the most benign trigger bad reactions. I’m considering carnivore, specifically all beef. Thank you for this info.

  4. Linda Logan Posted on July 4, 2019 at 9:13 pm

    Mikhailia, have you looked into oxalates? Olives and black pepper are high in oxalates. Watch Sally Norton on YouTube.

  5. San Bridges Posted on July 9, 2019 at 12:53 pm

    I want to know if she drinks infusions or if she tolerate them. And what about the white meats?
    I'm to try the diet, i'm having problems with digestion and gut inflamation, as I get older, i'm getting more sensible to rice, corn, wheat, even more with potatoes.

  6. hope king Posted on July 13, 2019 at 12:18 am

    I use hamberger cause I have a very low income

  7. hope king Posted on July 13, 2019 at 12:28 am

    I like a little walk for 15 min to 30 per day but I dont like the Jim cause other people look better then me. I have always lost on low carb. People use to call me lazy but I walked every day! But still was fat.

  8. rey reyes Posted on July 21, 2019 at 1:09 pm

    she's pretty cute!

  9. rey reyes Posted on July 21, 2019 at 1:09 pm

    intelligent like her dad

  10. Julie Mitchell Posted on July 23, 2019 at 3:00 am

    Excellent presentation.

  11. Take Off Your Blinkers Posted on July 27, 2019 at 4:08 am

    It's amazing that she survived all of these battles. (from an earlier video where she breaks it down a lot more)
    Also amazing is her parents, and what they would have gone through.
    I started listening to JBP, her father a few years back and no idea what he and his daughter have struggled with, and the guy still does tours and book signings, all while the MSM hound him, vilify him for standing up for what he believes in.

  12. Nicole VonW Posted on August 6, 2019 at 12:58 am

    It doesn’t. It’s because your gut lacks the bacteria to break down such foods, and it ferments, causing more issues. As well as all food sensitivities disappear bc one is simply just eating meat. …. eating meat is a temporary fix. I do not understand how people seriously can be so ignorant? We need to address the source issue, which is the gut issues like replenishing all the good bacteria missing and killing the bad. Our bodies are crying out for nutrition. Generation after generation, we are becoming more and more susceptible to Cancer, etc. Vitamins and minerals are key, we come from the jungle, and life began in the ocean. We should be living on veggies, fruits, algae, seaweed, some fish, nuts, seeds, legumes. 😘

  13. 199990 Views Posted on August 6, 2019 at 3:16 pm

    HVMN stands for Hate veggies Meat nourishes

  14. RAPTURE SOON Posted on August 9, 2019 at 3:55 pm

    Your issue during PG definitely HORMONAL…ESTROGEN!!!!

  15. Tareq Rabadi Posted on August 14, 2019 at 7:26 pm

    I think it's great that she could fix her autoimmune disease through changing her diet, however, I think the title is a bit misleading… the carnivore diet is an elimination diet that excludes toxins and allergens like lectin, FODMAP, sulphite, oxalate , salicylate and phytate, and it happens to be almost a zero carb and zero fiber diet… and it seems that eliminating those helps with such diseases, also, the carnivore diet advocates for consuming organ meats, which are the nutritious parts of the animal that actually achieve the healing , not the muscle meat…. I think it's important that people don't think that eating steaks is healing… I would say that organ meat heals, when you also exclude those toxins… which is achievable if you execute this diet correctly. checkout this video for more..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isIw2AN_-XU….. but if you just eat muscle meat, you will experience some benefits initially due to excluding those toxins, however, you will start to suffer from malnutrition if you don't understand where to get the micro-nutrients from the other parts of the animal, in addition to eggs and caviar.

  16. Sandy Smith Posted on August 17, 2019 at 8:26 pm

    Yes we need more DR on board

  17. Karen Kordes Posted on August 19, 2019 at 7:06 pm

    The optimum diet for humans is 70% plant and 30% animal products.

  18. Umesh Posted on August 24, 2019 at 4:26 pm

    If this is the way to go. How do you think about feeding the growing 7.7 + billion ppl without destroying the planet.

  19. RefusesCookies Posted on August 29, 2019 at 7:47 pm

    99% of people will get sick, fat, obese and die young on a meat diet. It causes cancer, heart disease, diabetes. Not to mention the suffering it causes countless animals and the damage it does to the environment. It is also a huge waste of resources. No human NEEDS to eat meat unless maybe if you have some highly rare and bizarre disease.

  20. mr snoop Posted on September 2, 2019 at 10:25 am

    "my face was a balloon"

  21. Torok Akos Posted on September 2, 2019 at 1:18 pm

    Dont fallow medness! Nobody eat only meat in the world! They lying! Non starchy veg and meat its fine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6g_geYeL4U

  22. Audra Fuller Posted on September 2, 2019 at 4:48 pm

    Love her story !! FYI….breath meters are consistently INACCURATE, still blood is the absolute marker of accurate readings

  23. Richard Silmai Posted on September 9, 2019 at 3:12 am

    Am an islanders and a free thinker don't belong to any group etc carnivorous, sugar free full of energy and feeling great. Great day to you from Palau

  24. Driving With Miss Daisy Posted on September 10, 2019 at 12:36 pm

    I really appreciate your experience. I am one that can’t lose weight if I eat over 10 gr carbs/day. So much of what you said reflects most of my life and I need to get back to what I call my ‘cancer diet’. I had never heard of ‘Carnivore Diet’ but am going to look up more info today in comparison to Eat Right 4 Your Type. Thank you again.

  25. Alex K Posted on September 11, 2019 at 12:17 am

    Mikhaila, how were your oxalate degrading bacteria on your microbiome test?

  26. Vivi O. G. Posted on September 11, 2019 at 1:56 pm

    I got R/A and I’m doing low carb and feeling much better but still got some issues. I’m just afraid of the carnivore diet. Like I don’t know how am I going to live without my veggies. Definitely need to investigate more about this carnivore diet cause I got two kids and I have to feel better and basically live longer for them.

  27. Peter Cyr Posted on September 11, 2019 at 2:17 pm

    I am gonna try carnivore. Darn its gonna be hard giving up my spinach wilted in lots of hot bacon grease.

  28. mary nguyen Posted on September 12, 2019 at 4:10 am

    Sounds like your problems have something to do with Oxalate toxicity in vegetables. Have you looked into this?

  29. green street Posted on September 12, 2019 at 6:56 am

    I loved this guy in harold and kumar go to white castle

  30. JayJay ChaDoy Posted on September 16, 2019 at 4:09 pm

    Ok, I'm old, lots of chances to try different foods. For this body gluten is a killer, along with sulphites (you know meds are rife with coatings and preservatives using sulphites, as are the meds they use to put you out in an operation, also at the dentist).

    They won't worry you with details, but look at how many meds people are taking these days and what are the tattoo colours preserved in?!

    I go to the hospital and say I'm allergic to the sulphites in the anesthetic. Sometiimes they looked shocked, like, oh no! And, for the most part I want to be as conscious as possible, without pain.

  31. jazzenthuiagirl Posted on September 18, 2019 at 8:42 pm

    I fully believe in keto/carnivore diets but I would love to see some of the folks that are keto/carnivore do MRI scans of their bodies, brain and CAC scans so we can see if it really is helping their health, clearing or keep plaque at bay, as opposed to just relying on how folks 'feel'. Bloodwork only shows so much. If MRIs are too invasive, how about Ultrasounds of carotid arteries or transcranial dopplers, etc;? I saw one youtube couple who did it and that was awesome.. but they avoided scanning the brain and strokes are the #1 killer in Asia and are rapidly gaining strength in the US as well.

  32. Dana Choate Posted on September 18, 2019 at 10:09 pm

    Autoimmune, CFS, IBS, IBD, and itchy all over!!! I started with Paleo, then Keto, moved to AIP and now switching to carnivore. The closer to carnivore I get the better I feel. I keep trying to convince myself to exercise but I have NO energy. I'm so glad you mentioned fixing diet first then worry about exercise later after feeling better, that's a much better solution than beating myself up emotionally for not exercising.

  33. Lak Sing Posted on September 19, 2019 at 3:52 pm

    On ayurveda and yogic science it does say that eating the meat of Cow is more better for us because biologically it's a animal that is very simmilar to humans ….our body doesn't reject it rather there is a natural affinity between cows and humans.

  34. David Lomm Posted on September 20, 2019 at 7:48 pm

    Meat, Salt, Water !… AND BOURBON 🙂

  35. Philip Diehl Posted on September 20, 2019 at 10:24 pm

    I'm on day 7 on Carnivore diet. Feeling better and better and better. Losing a little weight too.