April 5, 2020
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Staying Fit on Keto, Vegan vs. Carnivore, & Cutting Out Caffeine · #127 ft. Thomas DeLauer

(light electronic music) – 100% with you on exogenous ketones being a fourth macro nutrient, because fat is not the same as ketones. And especially when now we see science that skeletal muscle
tissue has the ability to use free fatty acids not even ketones in highly conditioned, fat adapted people. So it just goes to show that some cells will preferentially use free fatty acids, and some will use ketones, which leads us to honestly
believe that they’re not equal, they’re not one in the same. So don’t look at fats as ketones, they are different. And I think we’ll start
to see more evidence later on that’s just like, there’s probably different
sub-bodies of ketones to be completely honest, and obviously we know of BHB, acetyl acetone, acetate, whatever. But I’m sure it’s going
to go further than that. – [Woman] Welcome to the HVMN podcast, your resource for evidence-based
nutritional strategies, cognitive performance,
and fitness science. Thank you for joining us. – Thomas DeLauer, really great to have you on the H.V.M.N. podcast. – Stoked to be here, man. – Yeah, and of course you’re hosting in your headquarters
here down in Los Angeles, I’ll describe the setting a little bit for folks who are listening. You have the infamous
kitchen setup in the studio back there and you also have an in-house gym or in-office gym. – [Thomas] Yep. – Folks probably see all your multiple times a week updates
on your self experiments, talking about low carb, high fat diets, but sometimes, your own personal story gets lost in that mix. Can you step back and do a quick overview for your personal journey for
folks that don’t know that? – It’s been a wild ride. So I’ll give a little
bit of context first, and then give the whole background. But I’ve been doing the
ketogenic diet for, since 2010. So keto’s been big part of
my life for a very long time, and it really came into my life a lot more so with a call to action because I needed to lose a lot of weight and
I needed to get healthy. Backing up even further, I was an athlete when
I was in high school, I was an all-state rugby player, I was an all-state trackster, I ran cross-country, I was pretty athletic. It wasn’t until my late teens when I started damaging my
knees from so much running that I started doing a
little bit of weight lifting, and I became much less active. I was weight training, but I wasn’t running. I went from being a runner, literally I ran my first
marathon when I was, just before my 12th birthday. And I could go out and I could
eat seven or 8,000 calories and it wouldn’t be an issue
because I was burning it. And then I go from that to having injuries and not being able to
workout nearly as much, so I took up weight lifting
so I could do something. But the calories that I was consuming with endurance work is, that’s a whole different world. So of course, I started to pile on weight, and it started to pile on pretty quick. Then I got into the healthcare world. I was an executive recruiter
and a healthcare recruiter, or physician recruiter. So pretty high stress job, especially when you’re young. Quite frankly, it was
a commission only job, and you’re really chasing
the almighty dollar. And money was pretty good, I started making good money
and started chasing money. So for me, it was more about, Okay, well how do I just make
the next chunk of change? versus how do I get the next workout in? And I was still eating
like I was an athlete, so you can do the math. High stress job, sedentary and then eating
like I was still an athlete, obviously it posed a big issue. So a year and a half later and
here I am sitting 280 pounds, and stress is just compounding. At that point in time, I picked up a role with an
ancillary lab services company. So what that meant is, we provided basically
salivary cortisol testing and other ancillary lab
services to predominately fee for service doctors. What that means is that we were providing an ability for physicians
to test patients’ blood work without having to bill insurance. They were able to do this
in a fee for service model, which at that point in time
was a really big thing. Fee for service was just getting popular, so it was stressful because we were trying to teach people that world. The reason I’m saying all this is because this gives context as to
how I have a little bit of some medical knowledge, and how I understand the human body. Because when you’re
working in that capacity and you’re dealing with
physicians all day long, and you’re also dealing with
their patient population, you have to learn how the body works. Otherwise, you don’t make money, and I just decided that I really liked it. I really enjoyed what I was doing and I enjoyed how the human body works, especially because I was a former athlete. Except one glaring problem, I was extremely overweight and passionate about the human body. It was kind of hard for me to be like, hey, you should buy this product and you should use this in your practice and help your patients become healthy. Excuse me, let me eat some tater tots. – You don’t want to be a hypocrite. – Yeah, it wasn’t working, plus the big thing was is, here I had a beautiful wife that I had been with since high school. And I was just like, She deserves better than this. This is crazy. I’m just not taking care of myself. So that’s how I turned
to the ketogenic diet. And it was me turning to
the ketogenic diet simply because the physicians that I was working with were actually the ones
that turned me onto it. I was fortunate enough
to be in the right world where the doctors that I was working with at that point and
time were proponents of the ketogenic diet. I was a sponge, I was ready to take in whatever someone would throw at me because
I would have done anything to lose weight at that point in time. It’s just count my lucky stars that I was with the right people at the right time that turned me onto keto, and it was all about Thomas, it’s all about information, that’s what they were telling me. If you can control the inflammation and you can lose weight in your body, everything will turn around, and that’s where it all began in fasting keto way before
it was ever popular. – Yeah. Let’s just wind back the clock. That’s nine years ago, and I remember even three years ago when you just type in keto, the first result on Google was ketones are a toxic byproduct of being
in diabetic ketoacidosis. That was like two or three years ago. So nine years ago, that must’ve been fairly alternative. At that time I’m sure the only legitimate use case for a ketogenic diet was for tread resistant epilepsy probably. So curious to get your thought processes at the time when you get the
dogma of balance western diet, how your carbs have, most of your diet of the FDA
food pyramid is from carbs. How did you go from, okay, let’s kind of invert that table. Was that scary, did you
have nothing to lose? Did you research it yourself? How did you even research it because I’ve not found much
online literature at the time. – Yeah, I was definitely
a big research nerd, so I did what I could. It was interesting, I had always been a little bit
of an unconventional person. I ran, like I said, I ran my first marathon just
before my 12th birthday. I always did things at the
beat of a different drum. So I was not afraid to say, okay, this sounds, I had no biases one way or the other. For me, it was, anything was better than, I knew pizza, tater tots and fast food
wasn’t going to do the trick, that wouldn’t work. So I was open to it. It wasn’t just because they were doctors, they just so happened to be the people that explained it to me the best, and they explained inflammation in a way that really made sense. And it was like, by the way, one of the best ways to
modulate inflammation is through what’s called a ketogenic diet. And the only things
that I could find online for the keto diet were
on body-building forums that had talked about using it as a way to cut body fat before a competition, but don’t you dare do it
for longer than a period of time because you’re going to waste away and lose a bunch of muscle. I had a decent amount
of muscle on me already, so I was like, okay, well you
know if I lose some muscle, I lose some muscle. It’s not a big deal. I wasn’t too worried about it. I was so overweight, I
just didn’t really care. And it was very unconventional
for those doctors too, and it’s important to know
that most of these doctors that we were working with, they were working with concierge medicine. So they were working with patients that were paying them cash
to be their retained doctors. – Got it. So these are the bespoke audience. – Exactly. So it’s like if you have a
typical patient population, a doctor is going to have
them go whatever route they need to go so that the doctor gets the proper reimbursement. At the time ICD-9 started this changeover to what’s called ICD-10
classification coding. And it was like, if they were working with
a normal patient population that was going through the
reimbursement continuum that’s typical in
insurance standard of care, then they probably never
would ever prescribe a diet like this, because it just, they were using no ICD-9 or ICD-10 code to actually validate
it or get paid for it. So because these patients were working with these doctors in this capacity, if the patients weren’t
getting a positive outcome from whatever these doctors were ordering, the patients would fire them, and we’re talking affluent
patients that would probably pay these doctors 10 grand a
month to have them on retainer. And if they weren’t getting results, there’s the door doctor, you’re not doing your job. So these doctors actually did care for the results their patients would get. So I really did take to heart
what they were teaching me, and they’re the ones that gave me my first subscription to what was called, later on, called “Up The
Date” which was a way for me to get research journals. They gave me a subscription to it. They’re like, “This is what we use. “Check out all these journals. “Check out all this stuff.” And I just became obsessed. And it was at that point where I literally just dove into the books, dove into as much research as
I could to try to figure out, okay, well what am I doing with my body and how do I get excited about it? Because one thing I knew
about myself is that, if I got excited about something, I would stick with it and I
would just continue to do it. – And I’m sure that getting
access to the doctors, you can probably start seeing
some of the lab results as well in terms of looking
at peoples’ blood glucose, their lipids and getting some sense of, okay, this might have seemed kind of alternative from standard of care, but the results were really, I’m sure you were seeing
some of these patients on the keto extreme diet working, and then seeing that on yourself. – So we were pretty excluded
from seeing that stuff, but I had to trust these
doctors that we’re working with. Again, these were patients
that were literally paying $10,000 a month retainer. And concierge medicine is much bigger now and much more affordable than
it was eight, nine years ago. Back then it was, it was before the Affordable Care Act had really come into play. So after that, not going political at all, I’m just saying as a standard of reference for what happened with
the medical community is, when that went into
place a lot of physicians had a hard time keeping their businesses in practice anymore, because it changed the dynamic. Their patient load got
really large all of a sudden. So because their patient volume went up, they weren’t able to provide
a good standard of care. So the good ones either
became concierge doctors and built a business for
themselves where they worked on a cash basis or they
became hospitalists and went to work for a hospital system. And the ones that go to work
for the hospital system end up, just kind of end up going into the system. And it’s the abyss where they
just push patients through, call it McDonald’s healthcare. And then when you look
at the ones at that point in time that knew how
to work with patients, they built their own businesses out of it. So I had to really take their faith, their word for it and have some faith that they knew what they were doing, because, hey, their patients
are getting results. – It would be interesting to
hear about your journey from, okay, you are kind of out
of shape and a big dude and not actually healthy. And you get exposed to
the keto extreme diet, and then over the last nine years, you’ve built a huge presence and machine around educating and
helping a lot of people. What was that journey like, and was that a dream that
you had as a kid growing up? How did you even stumble upon this path? – No, I never wanted to
be even remotely famous. I’m such an introvert, there’s a reason, I might
say like there’s a reason that I enjoy being on camera, it’s because it get to talk
to my intimate film crew and I get to help a lot
of people without having to actually be an extrovert. We have this extrovert
ideal growing up where we’re supposed to be the
loud one in the room, we’re supposed to be the one
that’s always standing up on the soapbox and explaining things. It’s like well, I have so many good ideas that I thought were coming into my head, but I just was never able to
just have that confidence, or maybe it wasn’t confidence, as I’ve gotten older I
realize it wasn’t confidence, I just had no desire to be the one that’s like, loud. And I found a way to be able to, thanks to social media
and thanks to technology being the way, not only to spread the word but also, actually to overcome some
of my own insecurities with my own voice. Now people will think that’s stupid. People will think, I don’t want to say that. Oh, you know what that doctor’s saying actually makes a lot of sense. I think I could articulate
it a little bit better, but no, probably it’ll sound stupid. It’s given me the crutch to
be able to get over that, so the journey has been wild because it went from losing weight, getting in decent shape, seeing, hey, I actually have a
decent body under this. Maybe all that work I did in high school actually kind of paid off. Telling my wife, “I’m going to go ahead “and see if I can get on a magazine cover. “I think I have enough business acumen “that I can reach out “to the right people and make it happen, “plus I think I look the
part,” so I was like, “okay watch, in a year, “I think I’m going to be on
the cover of a magazine.” And 11 months later, boom. So I had my first magazine cover which was “Muscle and Performance
Magazine” at that point in time. So there was a period of time
there where there wasn’t any, dare is say monetization or any building of an actual brand that would make money. It was just more about perfecting myself. I actually left the job. I left the ancillary lab services company, they got acquired by
a private equity fund, and I left at that point in time. And I was like, “Okay, it’s time to find something new.” I actually knew I didn’t want to be in healthcare anymore because I was kind of sick of it. It was such a black tie environment, and I’m not a black tie kind of person. I spent so much of my suiting and booting in the healthcare world, that’s the last thing I wanted to do. I wanted to be a flip-flop CEO. (laughing) So I had this period of time– – Not wearing flip-flops, I think. – I know. (laughing) But I’m in California, I can do that here. So I had to figure out, okay, well what am I going to do? So this period of time where
I had did some magazine shoots and I ended up getting some
pretty good mainstream media exposure because of those magazines. And then when I started doing interviews and podcasts because of that, people were like, “Wait a minute, you actually
understand the human body. “This is cool. “We work with a lot of fitness people “and they never really explain things “in a medical way that
you explain things.” And it was, over time, over a period of a couple of months that I realized this is my gift. This is actually what I’m good at. And quite frankly, it’s what made me good at what
I did in medical device sales and ultimately in being in the
ancillary lab services world. I had to be able to
explain the human body, and if people didn’t understand it, of course they wouldn’t buy. Especially doctors, you’ve got to talk at the doctor level and you’ve got to help them understand their patients. And I was like, “Wow, no wonder I was good at that. “I think I have an ability to do that.” And I recognized that, so I got that vote of confidence that I needed there and that’s
when I started the channel. So it was kind of that way. I was like, okay, well
let’s just go for it. And I think I was also at a nice point and time when social media algorithms were not as crazy as they are now. I unfortunately think it’s very difficult for someone to build a
brand now, a personal brand. I think it’s very difficult for someone to become an
influencer and start a brand now, because the algorithms are
largely not in their favor. It’s tough. So I was at a point where
if you had good content, it would get served, people would see it. And I was just like, I’m just going to create a lot of content. And so one of the biggest things that I did is invest in
building a good team early on. I built a big team, I hired a bunch of videographers, bunch of editors and
I made them my family. I made sure that they were
onboard with what my mission was. And I’m like, “We’re just going to create “just more content than
anyone’s ever seen, “and we’re just going to go at it.” And I just became the
ultimate research nerd and just dove into as
much as I possibly could. And then I started learning, okay, well how do I leverage
this a little bit more and actually build a drive,
some revenue with it? So I started some E-books
and learned Facebook traffic and learned all that world, and that was able to get
me to run paid traffic so I could get more
visibility while seeing at least just enough return on investment to at least cover my
costs so I could continue to scale up and get my brand out there. So it was a little bit
of paid advertising, guerrilla marketing in the first part, so I took a lot of my, my wife and I were looking
and we’re like, okay. I was like, “Honey, we’ve got
three months to make this work “or we’re going to be
living with Mom and Dad. “Here’s what we got, “we’re going to put it into Facebook “and we’re going to put it
into pumping up the brand.” And fortunately, it was like the grace of
whatever you want to call it, keto just started to be popular then. And it was like, I was talking about it from a different angle, and it was just like, kaboom. And I was like, “All right. “We don’t have to live with Mom and Dad.” – Credit to that, I mean timing and then some balls, right, like you had some conviction there. No risk, no reward. – I was adamant. I saw my results with it
and I haven’t even talked about my wife’s story. I’ll just save that for another day, but my wife, autoimmune diseases, Lyme disease, she was really sick and the keto diet saved her. So I owed it to her, and I had lost a lot of weight with it and had a lot of success with it, felt great, it saved our marriage simply because she was so depressed and sick and I was overweight
and sick and depressed. And it was just like, people will give me crap sometimes about the keto diet and
say whatever they want to, and I just have to look at them and say, “You have no idea.” You try– – Walk in your shoes for a little bit. – Yeah, exactly, you can say whatever you want about the keto diet, but what it did for my family
and what it did for my wife, and what it did for keeping this together, you have no idea. So insult me all you want, but I go home at night
knowing that this changed my life and it’s changing
other peoples’ lives. – Yeah, and I think
what you’ve touched upon when you first initially
started researching the keto diet was very much
into the body building, almost that hardcore optimizing world. And I think the medical literature, there’s some applications
for therapeutic use, and obviously today it’s starting to enter and creep into just mainstream. This is maybe what people
should begin starting as a standard diet. You have the Kim Kardashians
of the world talking about the ketogenic diet. And I’m curious from your vantage point as you’ve seen that arc in history, what elements of the
hardcore body building world, which arguably is pretty
cutting edge in terms of bio-hacking and experimentation, what did you see come from that world and what did you see come
from the therapeutic world from use as an epilepsy
diet or use from diabetes or some of the metabolic
syndrome controlled diet. Did you get inspired by
both sides of the world, or what did your inspiration come from? – I found that by
combining both reasonings, from the body building
world and the medical world, I looked at this and I was like, ah, this is the recipe
to make a super human. This is, okay, you’re telling me that I can get ripped, but then these guys in
the body building world at that time couldn’t care less
about the cognitive effect. These guys, you could’ve
asked them to eat anything, if it made them ripped, they’d do it. So like, okay well that’s fascinating. And you look at forms and it’s
all kind of pseudo-science, and quite frankly there’s
nothing really wrong with pseudo-science if it’s
not used in old-fashioned. Pseudo-science is just
kind of like science that just hasn’t been put in a paper yet. So there can be some, it
depends on how you look at it. So some of this stuff was like, okay, this is people talking
about what their use was. And in my opinion, I consider that pseudo-science. Then there’s the medical journals that are talking about it from the side of, okay, here’s what it’s done
for therapeutic effects. And there were some measurements in terms of ketones in the brain
and glucose in the brain, and how things work there. So I was definitely inspired by both. But for me, my first thought was, okay, I’ve got to get this weight off. So I look over on the cosmetic side, and then it didn’t take long. It took maybe a couple of months before I was really feeling
what I would consider the therapeutic effects. Joints weren’t hurting as much, back wasn’t hurting as much, things just felt a lot better, and that’s where I think
if you look at keto sort of as a gateway drug for
lack of a better term, it opens you up to this whole other world. And once you’re thinking clean and clear and once that brain fog has lifted, then you start becoming interested in the more bio-hack kind of things. Body builders don’t know
they’re bio-hackers, but they are. So I was never really a body builder, but that community fed me a lot of what I knew about the ketogenic diet from a body composition
side with the exception of, they always thought that
you would lose a lot of muscle if you stuck with it. I can’t remember what the
study was in particular, but there was a study that
was published not long after I got onto the ketogenic diet, which was one of the ones that found that ketones were extremely,
extremely, loosing sparing. – Anti-catabolic, right? – Yeah very strong anti-catabolid. So learning that, that was like, oh my gosh,
this is the holy grail. I can actually stay lean
and then I could put myself in a caloric deficit per body fat, or I could actually put
myself in the surplus and possibly build muscle
and not gain a whole lot of body fat if I play my cards right. So it was really a combination of both, but once I dove into the
medical research more, that was obviously the
more exciting side for me. The physique and the
physical side of it kind of just came natural, I didn’t have to work really really hard at that because I didn’t
have these big surges in insulin that were
messing me up all the time. So once the diet was kind of set, it was just set and I could
focus on the other stuff. – Yeah, I think today the ketogenic diet, ketones in general, exogenous or endogenous production, I think it’s a very popular, exciting research area. And I’m just curious, in terms of your audience or
what you’re interested in, are you most excited about the physical
performance applications, cognitive performance applications, some of the therapeutic potential, the weight loss, body composition potential, and some of the, what’s
personally pretty interesting is the anti-aging longevity potential. I think just in terms of our audience, I would describe them
in three main buckets. I would say that you have
one group that are athletes, they want to maximize
their performance maybe at the expense of longevity, more like the body building types. They want to win that Olympic gold medal, or they’re in an occupation that cares about optimizing that
short-term performance. Maybe you’re in the military, maybe you’re a first responder. I would say the second big category is folks optimizing for longevity. Some of the data around reducing insulin, reducing glucose, ketones strengthen some of the longevity pathways. I know just folks in our
Silicon Valley network are really looking at ketogenic diet as a way to extend their health span. And I feel the third category is, I would imagine kind
of your story which is, okay, how do I optimize
my body composition? I might have some medical
issues that might be treatable through diet first. I feel those are the
three canonical buckets. What does your audience look like and what are you personally interested in? Talking to all of them all at once, how do you balance all of that? – It’s tough because
the audience sometimes gets dictated by what
trends and what works out. So it’s like I can put equal amounts of content surrounding all three, which I wouldn’t say I’m
equally passionate about, but I’m passionate about all three. But the content surrounding
body composition and body fat and just overall
human performance in general, seems to take off more
and so you have to kind of feed that a little bit. I’d say I’m most excited
about the longevity side. For me, that’s like metabolic efficiency, metabolic flexibility and longevity. Just being able to change how
our body sees nutrients to A, make us live longer but
B, ultimately help us perform better too. So I kind of in some ways tie performance in some ways with that metabolic
flexibility and longevity, because with efficiency and if our cells are operating more efficiently, then you’re probably going
to perform better too. You’re just going to perform better and operate for a longer period of time. I’m not in it to get the most out of a workout every single day. You were asking me earlier, we were talking about workouts
when we were in the studio, and I was just kind of like, “I’m all about just, “I just want to keep moving and be mobile “and flexible and be able to be “on the ground with my kiddo.” And it changes how I portray confidence, how confident goes out. And now having a kid of my own, it’s like, I’m all about, I want to be around as long as I can. I want to see him grow up. I want to see his kids grow up. I think there’s a lot there with the kid. – Yeah, and you want to be
able to play with the grandkid, and hopefully the great-grandkid too. – Yeah. – So I think probably the folks listening probably get a sense of
why one would consider a ketogenic diet and some
of the benefits there. So we won’t go into the basics, look at some of Thomas’ videos already, you can get the basics there. But I think what I thought was interesting was that you’ve been pretty experimental with different variants
of keto of low carb. I would say that within
the community today, carnivore is super-interesting. There’s been some
discussion around organ meat versus muscle meat. And there’s also discussion, I know you do a vegan keto or
vegetarian keto diet as well. – Yeah. – I’m curious to get your broad overview on the variants of keto
and what are your basic, you’ve done a lot of self-experimentation, you’ve talked to a lot of clients and folks in your community. What would you say are
the things that have stuck with you in terms of all these
experimentation or variants? – Yeah, I would definitely
say that I don’t notice a big difference now
between having low amounts of protein and large amounts of protein. I could say, go on record and say that
I’ve gone extended periods of time with lower amounts of protein, and extended periods of time
with higher amounts of protein, and I don’t see within
the ketogenic spectrum, a whole lot of a difference either way. – So what’s the protein load? – I’ve gone as high as two
grams per pound of body weight, which is very, very high and
I’ve gone as low as .25 grams per pound of body weight. – Okay. RDA is like .8, so that’s pretty low. – Yeah, so I went really low. If you’re training intensity is high, really low obviously
doesn’t work nearly as much. But I’d say, RDA’s at 0.8, if you’re looking there, I would say you’re perfectly fine there. This is me talking, this is what I’ve experienced. And some people will say
it’s the complete opposite, but what I have learned is obviously gluconeogenesis
being demand driven, once you have enough ketones in your body, your demand for protein isn’t that high because you’re so losing-sparing. You don’t need a whole lot of
protein coming in your diet. So you can arguably get
by with less protein, which is exactly what I determined with the whole vegan keto
challenge that I did. Now, I developed a lot
of haters in that world when I did that because they’re like, “Oh, Thomas is going vegan.” No, I did vegan for a few weeks, and it was more so to prove
that it could be done, and to prove that, hey, mainly to a lot
of the vegan community that despised what I did
within the keto community, I wanted to show them like, guys, you can do this and you
can feel quite good doing it. I didn’t lose muscle. I stayed relatively strong. My protein content was about 0.5 to 0.8. it was pretty low and it was mostly coming from incomplete sources. Incomplete protein sources, so I mean I was getting
flax and things like that. Now one thing I have learned
through all my research and my own self-experimentation too is that the body’s pretty
good at pooling amino acids where it needs to pool them, and ultimately creating complete proteins. You don’t need to be
eating complete proteins. That being said, then I
go to the other spectrum where I did a carnivore challenge, where I was like, okay,
I’m going to go carnivore. And I started doing carnivore, the original plan was
to do it for two weeks, I ended up pushing it about a month because I felt like I really
needed to give it DGI try. And I felt really good, I felt like recovery was
good but I felt like my body was missing some nutrients. Maybe I wasn’t doing it long enough, but I felt like I was
missing a few things. But my point is, overall recovery wise, I didn’t feel a whole lot
different from vegan keto than I did over to carnivore style. So I definitely made that consensus that, okay, protein isn’t as
important on a keto diet as it is otherwise. Whereas I’ve done other diets before, and if my protein was low, I would feel it. When I was in high school, if my protein was low with that demand that I was putting on it, I would feel it. I would feel lethargic, I wasn’t recovering, I’d feel more sore. So that’s one thing I
definitely learned for sure. Other than that, there’s
multiple different ways to skin a cat. – Right. People really are dogmatic in, or very religious around their
specific aspects of the diet, and I think, we’ve been having
a lot of carnivore folks on, and it seems like there is some value if you have auto-immune issues, all of that. And I think we need to have a discussion that’s a little bit more nuanced or clean. I think again, if you want
to choose a very strict, restricted version of keto, if there’s a therapeutic use for that, if you’re really intolerant to lectins or something then they’re
might be a reason for that. But I think the question for most people, which don’t have such
strict auto-immune issues with certain types of nutrients
from plants or toxins with, the kind of which we have from plants, it’s actually more optimal
to have a more balanced diet. And I think that’s where I’m
kind of personally interested. Again, it doesn’t matter
if I’m eating 100% meat or 100% vegetables, I just want to have the most
optimal diet for health span. And it sounds like you were finding that through having sources
of food from all sources. – Well one thing’s for sure, we’re not going to live
to be a million years old if we’re having a dogmatic
approach on anything, that’s the way that I look at it. I don’t think that saying, only going to eat meat is going
to allow us to live forever, and I don’t think that
being vegan is going to allow us to live forever. I do think that it really does A, come down to the individual but B, it also comes down to yes, two some degree a balance
but what is that balance and when does that balance apply? And one of the things that, I felt mentally very
good on a carnivore diet. I will say that. I felt very good and I think that has to do simply with inflammation. But inflammation is the
root of a lot of things, but is it the root of everything? If we bring inflammation down too much, then our body’s not able to react the way that it needs to react
to certain things too. So where do we draw the line? I’m not anti-carnivore by all means. In fact, if anything, that carnivore challenge made it so that I was more receptive to it. But you cannot say that you are carnivore and anti-plant nutrients or plant toxins, and then go and put a
steak rub that has oregano and this and that on it. (chuckling) You know what I mean? That’s going to affect you from
an immune system standpoint. If you’re going to do it, then you’d better be
doing it with just salt. If you want it clean that it’s the best. And again, that could be the case. And I know that there’s
some guys out there– – They’ll do that. – Yeah, that are very
strict and they believe it. But you can’t just say, if that’s the way it’s going to be. And I learned the hard way, because when I first started saying I was going to do carnivore, I was like, okay, I’m
going to cook my meats in some macadamia oil
and some avocado oil. And there was a couple of
people that pointed out to me, that’s not carnivore. And it took me getting into carnivore mode to actually think that way. So it was interesting
because as you start becoming more receptive to that, you start, ah, okay yeah. If this is how I’m going to eat, then I need to be getting my
fats from this source too. So eating the fattier cuts of meat, and magically yes, I did feel better. Excuse me, I did feel better than I did when I first started carnivore and I
was eating leaner meats and adding my fats in. So it’s just interesting, and it just kind of
brings me back full circle that what balance for you, might be totally different
than balance for me, period. – I think that’s where a lot
of my discussions go as well, which is that you have a
different genetic baseline, I have a different genetic baseline, maybe our goals are a little bit different and we have different glucose, metabolic responses to
different types of foods, we’ve got to be optimizing
ourselves a little bit. And that’s where self-experimentation, getting educated on how to best understand these is really important. – [Thomas] Yeah. – So what has stuck to you? I think in terms of all these things. What is a typical diet? It might be kind of a silly question, but I think it might be just helpful to get a sense of what has
passed the Thomas DeLauer, in your staple list of
go to items for you? – Yeah, I mean, it has changed since doing that carnivore experiment. I am much more open to animal
sources of fats a lot more, more so than I was before. So now, I generally, if I have eggs for breakfast, I’ll cook them in some
duck fat or some leaf lard or something like that that’s coming from a really good source whereas I used to only cook with
coconut oil and stuff like that. So now, I’m expanding a bit more there. I’m still, come from the school of thought of keeping it moderate fat in the morning and leaner in the mid-day, and then higher fat in the evening. It’s just kind of my philosophy, I’ve always called it the
protein sandwich hypothesis where I feel like you have more leeway to eat more fats in the morning, and I don’t want to go off on a tangent, but this is interesting stuff. So there was a BMC
genomic study that found that we have more ability to eat fat in the morning with less likelihood of that fat getting stored. Dietary fat, we can eat more dietary fat in the morning with less likelihood of it getting stored mainly because of one particular gene, PER-1. Now that makes it so
that your fat sensitive, your fat cells are less insulin
sensitive in the morning, but your muscle cells are
more insulin sensitive. – Interesting. – And vice versa in the evening. So if you eat a bunch
of fats in the evening, you’re higher risk of
those fats spilling over and going to storage than you
would by flip-flopping it. So it’s interesting, so I tend to keep my fats
moderately high in the morning, and then I kind of bring them down a little bit more mid-day, and then I bring them back up a little bit in the evening time, just to get my calories set, but not real high. And so that’s kind of just my method, so I have a lot of different
ways that I’ll do that. But now if I have some eggs, I’ll usually do something like two or three whole egg yolks and one egg white because the egg white
is the most inflammatory part of the egg anyway, the yolk is just so, so that’s sometimes what breakfast will look like for me with maybe a little bit
of bison mixed into it and maybe a little bit of bok choy. I’m a big fan of bok choy, because I feel like it’s
a cruciferous veggie where you get the
anti-estrogen nic effects without a bunch of the raffinose, a bunch of the sugar that comes from broccoli and cauliflower
which can bloat you, and the last thing I want
to do is eat broccoli in the morning and be distended all day. So that’s a go to breakfast is the bison, egg, bok choy mixed into it. But I fast a lot too, so a lot of times, I don’t have breakfast. Mid-day, like I said, it’s usually pretty lean so I might have some white fish or I might have some chicken or something. And if I’m going to have white meat, it’s almost always lean white meat because the fatty acid profile of chicken is just not all that great, we go for a higher fat cut. So usually try to do
some kind of fish or try to do some kind of white meat with lunch. And then again, some
toxins with some veggies. (laughing) So I usually will have
a little bit of veggies, but I tend to bloat a little bit if I have veggies mid-day too, so I don’t, just for that sake, I don’t want to feel like that, so I kind of carefully
pinpoint what I have. Any source of fat, usually going to be
pork rinds or something that’s relatively convenient for me, trying to get somewhere in the ballpark of 40-ish grams of fat, so it might be a little
bit of avocado mayo, maybe a little bit of
pork rinds, whatever. And then dinner, my wife’s usually making something. My wife’s an amazing cook, so she makes all kinds
of different keto dishes. So sometimes it’s something fun. We don’t do a whole lot
of dairy in our house, so we do almost everything with coconut. So she’ll make chicken
pot pie or something with some coconut flour
or some walnut flour made with coconut cream to make the crust. So we have some fun with it. At this point, I’ve been
doing keto for so long, I could go one way or the other. I could sit there and eat just like a really bland steak that has
no seasoning on it whatsoever, but if my wife is enjoying
the process of cooking, then I’m going to
indulge her and I’m going to have some fun with it. She knows where my
limits are and she knows where my lines are, but I don’t believe in just being completely militant about it. I’ve been on the high
performance end of the spectrum, and I’ve been on the
lifestyle end of the spectrum and I like to find the balance. And if I need to flip a
switch because I need to get on the performance mode because I need to get ready for a photo shoot
or I need to do something, then I’ll tell you what, I’ll become a little bit more of a machine and my wife probably
doesn’t have the most fun. And then I will be Tupperwaring it up with my boring steak and
a couple of green beans. – Yeah, yeah, no, let’s talk about that. I think we were touching
upon a little bit where, I think back to the dogmatism. I think there’s definitely a group that’s very zealous on
being super, super strict, and I think it’s not clear in terms of literature that being permanently keto is necessarily optimal. And I think, especially some
of the research coming out of the Buck Institute showing
that a cyclical conditioning diet as having similar outcomes as a permanent ketogenic
diet in terms of health span for an animal study. So I think the literature is
still open on what is optimal. So it sounds like you painted
some picture around that. You will relax your carb restriction just for overall happiness versus, okay, we’re going into high performance
mode or photo shoot mode, then we’ll be very, very strict. Is that kind of how you see it? – Yeah. – I feel like that’s
most of my conversations with people that have
been in space or have been in keto for a long time. – Totally. – You get the body
composition and get a very, very fat adapted through
a very long period of being strict keto. And then once you’re in
that fat adapted phase, you can add in a little bit of the carbs and it’s going to punch up
your glucose a little bit, but you’re so fat adapted
and so insulin sensitive, that you come right back down, and in the next couple
of days, you recover. – Well, even quicker than that. If you were to really go to
town and have some carbs, it might take a couple of days or a day. But quite honestly, my ketone levels are never all that high. I think a lot of it has
to do with efficiency. If your cells are efficient, the demand isn’t as high. It’s the same kind of
thing you see with glucose, peripheral insulin resistance. People will be like,
why is my glucose high? Well, because your cells aren’t using all that much glucose now, your peripheral tissues aren’t. And that happens with fat adaptation. So my body, even at the
end of a three-day fast, my ketones will still be like 2.5. (laughing) I’ve been doing this for a lot longer than even a lot of people that are experts or influencers in the community. So I’ve got a pretty good litmus test on what longish term keto looks like. And they just don’t get that high. They used to get way higher. I used to register, even on the pee sticks which
are largely inaccurate, I used to register purple for months, whereas most people when they start keto, they’ll be, register
purple on a keto stick for a couple of weeks
and then it goes away because it’s measuring acetyl acetate and that’s excess ketones. I was creating excess ketones for months, so I know for a fact
that my body at one point in time was creating a ton of ketones. And my point in saying all of
this is that I can have 80, 90 carbs in a day, and still be at the same amount of ketones in my blood that I would be if I wasn’t. And it’s A, because I’m active, because I’m pretty heavily muscled, there’s some factors there. But C, because I’m fat adaptive, I’m very fat adaptive. So when I say cyclical ketogenic diet, I’m pretty, it all depends
on how you look at it. I don’t believe that doing carb cycling on a weekly basis is the best thing. I don’t think that going three days keto, two days not, three days on, one day off because you
never really give your body a good chance to thrive for
the ketones in my opinion. So I usually am more of like, I’ll go two months keto, maybe one month off, maybe two months off. But even when I’m off, it’s very low glycemic
and still pretty low carb. We’re talking less than, I’m usually like a 130, 140 grams of carbs, that’s off keto for me which is dancing a fine line where it’s like if I were to skip breakfast the next day, I’d be back in keto. That’s what I feel is really, really great, and a lot of the people that I’ve talked to that
have kind of settled into that same world. And you don’t have to be a zealot, just because you’re trying to get people to understand your way of eating, doesn’t mean that you
need to live this black and white lifestyle simply because it’s what you’re preaching. I preach keto, does that mean that I have
to be keto all the time? Absolutely not, it means that
keto is a tool in my toolbox, and I’m indebted to keto because of what it’s done for my body, what it’s done for my family. So I owe it a lot and
I want a lot of people to be able to experience
what I experienced, but I also want to be able to live my life in an optimal way and
be able to be targeted with my keto diet. And that’s always call it, more than a cyclical, I call it targeted ketogenic diet, because what is your goal? What is your target? What are you trying to do? – Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense, especially with the notion
around ketone chasing. People want to show
really, really big numbers. It’s like, okay, why do you want to do that? What’s the goal there? And I think it’s also pretty interesting in my experience with the
high performance world, oftentimes you’ll want to use carbs strategically before events. So it’s just like again,
what is your goal? If it’s for a therapeutic use case because you’re diabetic or
have some sort of syndrome, then yes, maybe be much more strict because that’s a health issue. But for a performance
issue or longevity issue or health Ben issue, it’s a little bit more
nuanced in terms of just okay, let’s just only eat meat
for the rest of our lives. – And if you have a
glioblastoma and you’re trying to stave off a brain tumor, then that’s one thing. I’ve even wondered, I’m like if I got diagnosed with epilepsy and some like randomly
adult onset epilepsy, (chuckling) in some ways I’ve told my wife, I was like, it’d be kind of relieving because then I would just have no question that I just didn’t get time, and there’s never any experimenting that’s going to confuse me. Because I go full bore into what I do, and when I learn things, it can get frustrating because I try to track
data points and things. And even when I’m cycling
in and out of keto, it’s really hard to track good data, everything’s all over the place. (whooshing) – [Geoff] Hey listeners, if you’re enjoying this episode thus far, please consider writing a
review on our iTunes page. It really does help increase
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see you guys share episodes that you’ve enjoyed on your Twitter, Instagram or Facebook, and we
often re-share those posts. Just tag us at our handle @HVMN, now back to the show. (whooshing) – Well, I wanted to ask you a question, because I’m curious your thoughts on this, is if we took for instance
like 500 years ago, diseases that would
ravage and infections– – Killing people. – Yeah, and things like that. So if we had the intervention
that we have today to be able to fight off a
staff infection or things that would ordinarily kill people. If we had all the same
advances there with medicine, but we were able to apply
it to what we were eating 500,000 years ago, do you think people would live as long as they are today or longer? – I think it would be longer. And my thesis there, my proposition there is
that it’s pretty clear that, I would say that there’s
more and more data suggesting that whole unprocessed
foods are generally better than processed foods. And I think the diet
today of average Americans is like 50% processed. So I think even just
from a food selection, 500 years ago, there just wasn’t
processed anywhere there. And then too, I think that the sugar intake, I remember seeing this crazy
statistic that in 1800s, the average American had less
than a pound of sugar a year, and now it’s like 50
pounds of sugar a year. So I think the carbohydrate
intake was much lower. It’s an interesting argument
around how much protein access did the average person have? Because I guess in the 1500s, if you were a serf, you probably weren’t
eating a lot of protein. You’re eating with the bread or the grain. But I would say I think
probably the biggest thing is that you probably did have
a much more unprocessed diet, and your livelihood was much more active. I think that’s one thing
that I’ve been thinking a lot about where you and I make our livelihood through our creativity
and intellectual capacity. You’re not making money by
lifting weights necessarily, although maybe the
photo-shoot stuff and YouTube. (laughing) – Some incorrect way, maybe. – But I think mainly the folks that, our producers and your staff here, they’re creating, their livelihood is intellectual which is probably not optimal again from a physical health
outcome perspective. – Yeah. – So my thesis would be
if you’re noblemen and up in terms of having access
to a lot of protein, you’re probably going to
be able to live longer. But I think if you’re
a serf whose just able to only eat barley or
something, maybe not. – I’m in the same boat as you, and it’s like the only one
that I raise questions, this is coming from someone
that’s a very active person, is will a car arguably last longer, it’s not comparing apples to apples, but will a car last longer
if you leave it parked in the garage all the
time and just turn it on every now and then just
to keep the oil circulating and just to keep the batteries charged? It makes me wonder if we were
eating ridiculously plain, this is horrible for me to say because I’m a very active person, I promote everyone getting active. But do you think physical
activity actually wears us out to the point where our
cells actually might die, or does it actually encourage, and there’s different studies
that show different things. It’s just so wild. I’m not even challenging
what you’re saying, it’s just, it brought up
something that I’ve thought about. Like wow. And the other thing that
comes up is even alcohol. I don’t even drink at all, but I look at the adaptation of fasting is all about stressing the body. – Yes, the hermetic effects. – So alcohol to some degree, is it stressing the liver and actually making the liver stronger
to some certain point. So you can make this weird
argument with anything. And I think my point in
saying all of this is, it’s like yeah you can argue in so many different ways on this. Back to the question you
flipped back to me is yes, I do think so too. I think we definitely would live longer in the sense that less processed food, and I also think people
were generally a lot more, they were happier I think, in a sense that it was
very black and white if they were unhappy. Because if they were unhappy, they were– – [Both] Probably dying. – Or getting attacked. So the instances of just being stressed were probably a lot less. You didn’t know any different. You just were surviving. That was just normal stress, and it wasn’t like, oh my God. Am I going to eat today? It was more so like, okay, well Jimmy killed a boar. But I think the stress
was just different whereas in this day and age, I think it’s more of a stress
thing that’s killing us. – I think actually, that’s probably the most
important fact actually. I think you hit it on the nail. I think we’re talking about
this a little bit earlier, but I think capitalism is really
good at maximizing the GDP, the productivity of a group, but it’s probably
sub-optimal for the happiness of an individual. And I think it’s an
interesting world where, I don’t know if people are happier today in modern society versus
maybe us 500 years ago when you had your family
and your tribe of 100 people that you cared about. You didn’t have a
celebrity out there making you feel jealous about them. You didn’t have weird social media getting you stressed up all the time. Your job was pretty stable. You didn’t have a lot
of material requirements that I think capitalism and materialism has really driven for us. I think baseline happiness
and the reduction of cortisol was probably really huge. – Yeah. It’s just wild. I think about this. This is the kind of stuff
that keeps me up at night, that stresses me out. The things that stress
me out are the things that I’m thinking about, how wild it would be. And someone said to me, it was a really powerful thing. We were talking about habit loops, and I know we’re going
off on a little tangent, but I guess this is
what podcasts are about. We were talking about habit loops, and I was talking about phone addiction and how I notice when I get more stressed, I tend to default to a
little bit of phone addiction where I’ll check my email because you’re just seeking dopamine. Dopamine hits, boom, boom, boom, phone, this, that. And he said to me, he was like, “You know I noticed an interesting thing,” he’s like, “social media
and everything general. “When I’m deprived of social activity “or community is when I start
seeking out dopamine hits.” And he gave me a perfect example, he’s like, “I used to go
to lunch with friends,” he’s like, “and then all these friends “started getting busy and it
started becoming less and less, “and then I started
realizing I had associated “the dopamine hit with
the social side of things. “But now that the social aspect was going, “I would just go to lunch alone, “and I started associating
the dopamine hit with food.” He’s like, “I started
establishing a food addiction.” I wonder how much actually
comes back down to us as social creatures, and really just requiring
that dopamine hit and happiness coming from
a social side of things. And social media in a lot of
ways takes that away from us. – Hijacks it, yeah. – Yeah, where it’s like we feel like we’re getting social interaction, we really do. That’s the hard part is
that we’re intellectual, is intellectual creatures and we’re becoming strongly frontal
lobe where we’re like, oh, I’m getting my social interaction. – Yeah, almost like my thing, yay. – Yeah, so you’re not getting the true, and then I mean holy crap, we can go to a whole biofeedback where all the different frequencies and energies and stuff like that. Of course you’re going to pick up energy being around other people, and feed or die off of that energy. So back to the original thing at hand is, 500,000 years ago, there was a sense of
community that I think would really keep people alive. And if that was applied with what is available today in terms of advances, yeah, that’s why I think
people would live a lot longer. – One of our mutual friends, I won’t name the name, but he mentioned that he
doesn’t have any caffeine, any sort of stimulants. And I think his thesis was
that essentially caffeine is a adenosine memetic and then basically, you up-regulate the amount
of adenosine receptor which is kind of a tiredness receptor. And his whole thesis is that basically, okay you don’t want to
be upright doing a bunch of adenosine receptors, but I think that level, I’m like, okay, it’s fine. I will have more caffeine. But I think the next level
of which is interesting and kind of reminds me
of the dopamine point is that what if you had so
much adenosine receptors that it’s pushing down and
down regulating serotonin and dopamine receptors, you get less happy. So almost in terms of have
you been trying to structure your life or your
patterns to minimize some of these habit loops. So getting off of caffeine is one of the harder things for me, so I’m curious if I conquered that– – We’re on the same page totally. I don’t know if, I think I know who you’re talking about and I’m not going to name names, we’ll talk afterwards. But he or she may know that I recently had tried cutting out caffeine. I say try because I didn’t, I wasn’t committed to going cold turkey, I was going to switch. Keep the green tea in the
mix and try to keep it under 50 milligrams a day, just small amounts of green tea. And I’ve been going three months now, and I actually, believe it or not, I feel like my cravings are worse. I think I’m more mellow
and I’m less reactive, that’s an obvious thing. That’s like, less
catecholamines, less adrenaline. I’m less jumpy and things
like that, that’s okay. On physical performance,
no significant change. But seeking the dopamine hit, it hasn’t, I’m still
seeking the dopamine hit and I’m not getting it from caffeine. So now I’m like, I’m cost-benefit here. What is, I have caffeine, I’m certainly at a point
now where I don’t need it. I’ve been off of it, so I don’t wake up
needing a cup of coffee, but the benefits to coffee seem to, in my opinion, outweigh
what the negatives were. But it’s only been a few months, and yeah, the whole process
of, CBD for example, that does the opposite. CBD I’ve often thought, CBD changes adenosine receptors in a way where it makes it so that we
have more adenosine receptors. So does that mean that that’s going to make you groggier and make you do the opposite longer term? It’s just a wild world. It kind of comes back to everything in moderation including
moderation I guess. I guess it’s kind of a cop out to say it, but I’ve found that cutting out caffeine was more of a placebo effect
more than anything for me. I was proud of the fact that
I was cutting out caffeine. And the reason I did it is because I was in the process of getting my
helicopter pilot’s license, and I was like, okay, well when I’m flying a helicopter, I don’t want to be shaky and stuff, and I want to be able to be clear. and it did help me with that. – Yeah, I just wonder if every one of us have a different U-shaped curve
for a lot of these things, like exercise you mentioned or alcohol. There’s some hermetic effect. If you’re running 100
miles every single day, it’s probably going to not
be optimal for longevity. But if you’re not doing anything, probably not optimal for longevity either. And it’s like, and probably we have different set points, just given our genetics
and the kind of environment we were raise in. With potentially even alcohol, although I think the alcohol data that I’ve seen in terms of
being optimal for longevity, it’s more of an epidemiology
or associational study. I don’t think they’ve done
experiments where it’s like, okay, here, drink a beer. I don’t drink a beer. See who lives longer. That hasn’t been done. One thing I wanted to
touch upon was fasting. So you’ve mentioned
fasting a couple of times, and my personal story of
getting into keto actually came from fasting first and
then into the ketogenic diet. However, I think of fasting
as eating your own body fat, where a ketogenic diet’s
essentially exogenous fat because it is your primary
source of calories. So I think it’s very
much a similar tactics for the same metabolic strategy. Just restriction of carbohydrate and shifting to fat metabolism. It sounds like you started
off of the ketogenic diet, and then started experimenting
into intermittent fasting and fasting. I’m curious to hear about
your experimental fasting, something like you’ve done
the three day fast before. My longest fast ever was a seven day fast. I’m curious if you’ve done
some really long fasts. – I did my longest, I do three
days every four months or so. I really like three days. I think that’s a perfect sweet spot. And recently, I’ve become
a fan of the 36 hour, I love a frequent, every couple of week, 36 hour fast. And again, I’m digressing
but this is fun stuff. It’s like the element
of mastery that comes with being able to go
through the evening time, the evening time’s the tough time. You go home, I got my wife and my kid, they’re eating dinner and I’m not, and it’s like there’s
an element of mastery that comes with that
that I just really enjoy. – And I think sleeping hungry
is the hardest part I think. – Totally. I find myself, it’s like 7:30, can we go to bed? Can we just knock this out. I mean I love fasting, and fasting was implemented into my diet only a couple of months
after I started keto. – Okay, so it was very early. – Effectively did both,
and it was honestly, I was told to do intermittent
fasting before keto, but I was afraid. A lot of people do the
opposite much like you, and you probably just weren’t
thinking body composition the way I was or anything
like that in any way, but a lot of people that I’ve talked to that are looking to lose weight, fasting is a challenge for
them and it’s kind of scary. But then a lot of people
are also the opposite where they’re just like, oh, it’s easier for me to just not eat than it is to think about
eating that bacon and eggs. So I fall into the
category of I wanted to, don’t take my food away, don’t take my food away. And then all it took was
having my appetite suppressed by being on keto where I’m just like, I don’t even really want breakfast. So, sure. So, I was not really doing an
intermittent fasting style, I was just two days a week, doing like a full day fast. And for me, it was purely a calorie thing. I’ve always been big
on looking at calories over the course of a week versus everyday, and that was how I was taught and that’s how it made sense to me. So I don’t look at calories daily, I just look at calories weekly. And if I had two days a
week where I wasn’t eating, that’s a heck of a lot of
calories in the week in that net. – Okay. And so almost like you
started simultaneously with your free-fasting. And again, I think back in 2010, this must’ve been pretty wild. I don’t think people were
talking about fasting at all. – [Thomas] No, it was– – It must’ve been like, Are you anorexic? Are you weird? Are you crazy? – The story of my life. You’re talking to someone that was again, a runner all through middle school, and running extreme distances. So I was used to being the weird, little runner boy. “Hey what are you doing? “What are you running a marathon?” I was always doing weird things, and I had a very unconventional childhood. I essentially did independent study from the time I was 13 on, so I worked full-time to
help support my family all through high school. So I had a weird upbringing, (laughing) I guess I’m kind of a unique
snowflake in that sense, so people were always saying
weird things to me about that. So it just came as no surprise. Here I was not eating, and, “Oh, Thomas is just
being weirdo Thomas again.” Now I’m just publicly weirdo Thomas. – Yeah. And a pretty good adaptation right? I think by breaking paradigms, you’re just being very, like you’re collecting more information, you like to explore on that
front of human knowledge. You need people that have
a high risk tolerance to be able to be like, okay, I want to experiment
and see what works. And then maybe pave a way
forward for other people. – Yeah, totally. – I think one more relatively
recent introduction to the keto space is this whole notion around exogenous ketones and I think you’ve had some ideas and
posts and videos about that. Curious to get your sense
of exogenous ketones. We obviously make a ketone necessary, we think about it as a
fourth macro nutrient type of a category in addition to your fat, protein, carbohydrate. I’m curious to get your
thoughts on exogenous ketones and then where do you
see this ketogenic diet, low carb kind of eating going
in the future in the future? – 100% with you on exogenous ketones being a fourth macro nutrient because fat is not the same as ketones. And especially when now we see science that skeletal muscle
tissue has the ability to use free fatty acids, not even ketones in highly conditioned, fat adapted people. So it just goes to show that some cells will preferentially use free fatty acids, and some will use ketones which leads us to honestly believe
that they’re not equal, they’re not one in the same. So don’t look at fats as ketones, they are different. And I think we’ll start
to see more evidence later on that there’s probably
different sub-bodies of ketones to be completely honest. Obviously we know BHB, Acetyl acetate, acetone, whatever, but I’m sure it’s going
to go further than that. Different cells will use a
different cell, 100% agree. I think that there’s
practical applications wherever you need them. Predominately, the
highly cognitive function and heightened physical performance, that’s where the research is and that’s where I see the effects
versus, there’s other worlds, and you can talk, we started talking about longevity, that’s going to be
interesting to see because I actually do think that exogenous ketones will play a part in that. I think ketone esters are going
to play a much stronger role in longevity than ketone
salts would play in longevity. You can argue that ketone salts can have some effects on performance, this and that, depends on where you look. Ketone esters, it’s pretty clear, there’s some pretty published stuff that’s pretty straightforward with ketone esters and performance. Again, you can make the
argument with salts, but it’s a little bit ambiguous. Longevity, I think from the
longevity side of things, I think that’s where the
esters are really going to end up playing a part, but I can’t say because it’s too early. As someone that loves the
idea of being dual fueled, I’d love to be able to go
do a cross set style workout and be able to operate through
whatever glycogen pathway I need to when I need to, or have more aerobic
endurance when I need that. Ketone esters have helped me with that, but by and large, let your body create
what it needs to create, and when you need to use
the esters or when you need to use the exogenous ketones
for practical application, that’s exactly what they’re there for. Hopefully we can come to
a point where we can learn even more about how we can use
them for longevity reasons. – A lot of work yet to
be done in the space, even with the ketogenic diet. There’s still the eating pattern that’s been studied and still, people are still doing
new literature on how to best apply it versus
new use cases as well. And one thing, in your office here is that you have a
massive wall of red light, infrared light gear, and you talked about tracking
a bunch of different stuff. I’m curious, and it sounds like
you have an Apple Watch on. What are the things
that you like tracking? In terms of quantitative stuff, what are your go to things? What are some of the devices, the file hackery stuff that
you’re into in the space? – The bio-hack side of me is just, that’s just a nerdy thing to keep me, it keeps me motivated
to be completely honest. Learning that stuff, my go to, red lights have been fun. My red light therapy, we talked about it a little bit. What is red light therapy? What is getting it from the sun like? How do we tell? It’s hard to tell, but I love gaming the system and gamifying the process a little bit. I’ve played around a little
bit with Aura and Whoop, I don’t like to say I like
one more than the other, but I tend to lean towards the Whoops just because the Aura, I lift, and if I’m lifting barbells and stuff, it messes me up– – Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have to put my Aura ring on, yeah. – But I like them both, and they’re great guys. Those guys are awesome. I’ve talked to, I know all those guys, so it just all depends
on what you’re doing. So heart rate variability
has been a big thing for me. I think that’s kind of
a way of the future too. I think we’re going to
start learning just, hey, well the heart
actually has the ability to be flexible just like our
cells do at a peripheral level. So kind of the master switch so to speak can be more flexible. So that’s something
I’m really into lately, all kinds of different things. Meditation, I’m big into that world. Hard to quantify that, I don’t have radio
imaging at my fingertips to see what’s working, but I notice a pretty
significant difference when I’m on the meditation
game versus when I’m off. I try anything that’s thrown at me. – Isolation tanks, hot sauna– – Hot sauna too, that’s a big one. I can’t believe I left that out. So hot sauna over infrared to me. So I do have lights here, the red lights, they have infrared too, so I feel like I get that, but I love sitting in a hot sauna. I’m a big fan of dry saunas. I think U-shock proteins
are an interesting world. I’m curious to see what’s
going to come up with, maybe there is some already
and you can direct me that way, but is there research surrounding the world of U-shock proteins
and ketones together? – No.
– Yeah, ’cause that, that seems like the perfect combination– – Yeah, the anti-inflammatory, yeah. That’s interesting, yeah. – So well. So you name it, I’ve probably tried it. Cold showers, ice baths, all that kind of stuff. Only on fasting days, just because I always try
to jack my catacholamines and my adrenaline up as
much as I possibly can. I see, I view my fasting
days as my catacholamine, adrenaline on days, and my other days as my off days. – So you just really jack up everything you stress yourself up. (laughing) – I sit there and I
try to create problems. – Probably a cold shower– – No, I just shock my body. I figure I’m already doing it. I feel like if anything’s going to be, if it’s going to be bad, it would be bad if it was chronic. And I don’t want to constantly have these, you don’t want to be in
that heightened stress state all the time. In fact, the evidence shows
that cortisol is perfectly good, except cortisol when it’s
high during a time of eating, is when it’s bad. So cortisol is supposed to be elevated when you’re not eating. It’s a natural response, and it’s supposed to
be high in the morning. But if you’re chronically stressed and your cortisol levels are
elevated while you’re eating, that’s exactly and quite literally where the gimmicky
marketing is actually right. That’s where belly fat
does accumulate because we have more glucocorticoid receptors, we have more of those
receptors in our visceral fat and our abdominal fat than anywhere else and that’s directly of
course related with cortisol. So if your cortisol levels
are elevated when you overeat, then yes, that does
have a higher potential to store as body fat. There’s no denying that. So I try to be like, okay, why would I want to
have these spikes in stress on days that I’m going to be eating somewhat more frequently? I might as well have
these spikes of stress where it’s just going to pull body fat. So that’s my weird way of looking at it. – Yeah, it makes sense. I think it’s also interesting
in terms of stacking. I think it’s elegant in terms of you’re really targeting your days off in very targeted ways versus like, okay, I want to kind of fast and exercise and do sauna in a very staggered way. And I think that reminds me of a lot of the puritization that
pro athletes already do with the diet and exercise. And it sounds like you’re doing that with your bio-hacks as well, which is I think the first time I’ve heard about that in terms of, yeah, I actually cut those. It kind of makes sense, fast with your ice and
everything else which is basically just an even more
cyclical puritized version of what some of the top
athletes are already doing, so it’s kind of cool. – Call it bio-stacking. (laughing) I just came up with that. – Yeah, yeah, yeah. – That’s kinda what it is, right? – Yeah, yeah. One question I always like to ask as we wrap up here is that if
you had infinite resources, infinite people to be guinea pigs, what study would you run
and what do you think are some of the most
interesting scientific questions in the pure space that
you’d love to answer or see? – Cancer’s is near and dear to me because I’ve lost a lot of family to cancer. So I think if we had infinite
resources and we really could, really could look at just other forms of cancer like non-small cell lung cancer. Because a lot of the ketogenic research is surrounding brain cancer, glioblastoma. There’s not denying
that for glioblastomas, ketogenic diet’s the way to go. And I know that Dom D’agostino is looking into a lot of that stuff, and that’s really awesome
but I feel like it’s still, it’s underfunded,
under-resourced and I feel like that’s a world that
I really want to see. And it’s broad, I want to
see other forms of cancer, I want to see adjuncts to chemotherapy and I want to see adjunct to radiation. I want to see realistic practical stuff with the ketogenic diet, and we can’t really do that until we break through this barrier where it’s more widely accepted. – That makes a lot of sense, especially with cancer. I think if there’s a critique on the space it’s like how do we contain the excitement
without over-hyping it, and how do we accelerate some
of the research and data. – And how do we not, and this sounds so bad, but how do we not take the hype out of the diet portion of it
while talking to the, because I can’t tell you, when you start talking cancer, you put a little bit of
a dark shadow on things. You just do. If you don’t want people to think like keto’s the cancer diet. That’s the last thing you want. I lost my dad to cancer, and so it’s very near, I
really want to, cancer sucks, I hate it. I want to find ways to do that, and even when I put content on my channel surround keto and cancer, it bombs. It just doesn’t do well. People just don’t, unless they’re there at that point, you have to be in a
special place in your life to be open to hearing it, let alone be really wanting to hear it. And so it’s just, now, algorithmically, that tells me that people
aren’t looking for it, so we need more awareness
there and we need more, the more garbage that comes
out saying keto’s unhealthy, the more people are just going
to never accept it as that. Dismiss it, so, it’s frustrating, but I definitely want to see
something pave the way there. – How do you see this space
evolving in the next few years, next five years? – I did a video on this specifically. I said, well the keto diet crash, because it’s been a common thing. If I looked in my crystal ball, I would say that keto is going to settle into more of a low carb, it’s going to settle into
more of a targeted ketogenic, because, there’s two reasons. One, it’s just too much
for a lot of people to try to digest all of this stuff. Actually, three reasons really. Number two being I think
the term keto in itself is just, it sounds too, it almost sounds like a diet, you know it sounds too
aggressive at first. Keto, it’s just like you’re adopting, it needs to be a way of life and just not anything with a name, it just needs to change
how we look at food, and it needs to change
how we look at a label. So that’s one thing that’s happening is it’s changing how we look at the label, it’s changing how we look at food, it’s changing how we look at sugar, it’s changing how we look
at processed carbohydrates, processed food in general. So it’s doing its job. We just need to make sure
that we all stick together to a point where it
sticks around long enough for it to hit all the
touchpoints that it needs to hit. And a lot of people get upset with all these different food brands coming in, making keto products and this and that. I don’t like how you’re coming in with all your Erythritol
and all this and that. It’s easy to get upset
with a lot of these brands that are coming in and they’re making essentially keto junk food. But I have a different view on that. I feel like if we’re Nabisco-izing, if I can make up a word, keto then we’re doing something right because it means that people are starting to see it in a different way. And I would rather have
a bright fluorescent bag of almond flour Erythritol cookies than I would double-stuffed Oreos any day, let’s put it that way. So don’t hate on the
people that are doing that, because they’re actually the ones that are grabbing the other
people from the Midwest that just have some of these high junk food
consumption populations, so it’s helping us. What we don’t want is
people over-marketing, that’s what’s getting hard. If everyone comes out with a keto product, if everyone comes out with a keto food, then I feel like that’s going
to take the buzz out of it. But maybe I’m wrong, maybe that’s actually what we need. – Yeah, it just reminds me, I don’t think I was old enough to really cognitively be aware of it, but I remember everything
being low fat back, I guess when we were growing up. It’s like everything was the 100 calorie, low fat version of the Oreos, the 100 calorie pack. I wonder if that’s going to be the world that we move towards. The low carb, healthy fat version of it. – Yeah, it totally
could be and it’s better than what it is right now otherwise. – Yeah. So cool. How do our folks follow
you along in your journey? What’s in process for you for
the rest of the year and 2020? What are you most excited about? – In 2020, I’m honestly just excited to just grow the channel
as much as I can right now. We talked before. I’ve got multiple businesses. As far as the Thomas
DeLauer brand’s concerned and spreading the word, I’m just doubling down on it. It’s growing 100,000
subscribers a month right now, I just– – That’s insane. – We’re reaching so many
people and I’d be foolish to pump the brakes at all on that now. Obviously, I put the right
stops in place to make sure I’m not always building
on someone else’s land, building only on YouTube’s land. I’m not that, in reality. So that’s just big for
me for the rest of 2020. So what I’m really excited
about is just goal, hitting two million
subscribers by October, and after that, we’ll see what happens. – Again, you’re right at one point six, one point seven right now. That’s nuts. Growing, that’s like Silicon
Valley hyper-growth numbers. 10% month over month growth is like, well like the best startups grow at, so you’re essentially an
Uber in the human form. – Unless YouTube wants to pull the carpet from underneath me and be like, no, we don’t want to serve
keto content anymore. We’ll see what happens. I don’t think that’s going to happen. – Yeah. That’s another can of worms where is there censorship in the space? But we’ll leave it for next time. Thanks so much Thomas. – Right, you bet. – [Woman] Thanks for tuning
in this week everyone. If you want to learn more about HVMN and our offerings, visit www.hvmn.com/pod. Also, by writing a
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episodes you find most valuable. Visit go.hvmn.com/podcastsurvey
for that survey. It will only take a few minutes, and new submissions are eligible for an HVMN ketone giveaway. Until next time, eat well, train smart, and live your life. (low thudding)

Randall Smitham



  1. Sam Ketofueled Posted on September 11, 2019 at 12:23 pm

    I’m glad Thomas Delaur agreed to this interview…Thank you for your always quality content.I don’t know how to review your channel on I tunes.A link would help

  2. Steven Britt Posted on September 11, 2019 at 12:43 pm

    How old are these guys?

  3. Josh Schleining Posted on September 11, 2019 at 2:22 pm

    I have been soaking up everything KETO I can to better understand. I am currently in a keto state, but I am not deliberately doing the keto diet. Actually, closer to a whole 30, with some dairy and legumes put back in. No sugar, no processed carbs. 16/8 intermittent fasting with a full 24 hour fast once a week. During my eating window, I do not worry about calories. I do not follow macros. I eat sensibly, and I am getting full with a lot less compared to before my dieting change. The weight has been dropping a little faster than I thought. 46 year old male, about 2 lbs a week. Weight loss aside, I feel great. I sleep sound. I have more energy. This interview and your interview with Ivor Cummins, absolute gold.

  4. crux321 Posted on September 12, 2019 at 12:22 am

    I have heard historians say medieval peoples would fish and hunt and raise pigs/chickens/etc. They also ate grains made int course unrefined bread while wealthier people ate more and more refined bread.

  5. Bob Weadababyitsaboy Posted on September 12, 2019 at 2:07 am

    What are the odds that the algorithms are manipulating the data on Keto and cancer? I and everyone I know is interested in cancer solutions. The only ones that aren't are big pharma and the medical industrial complex. There is way too much money in people getting and living with cancer for as long as possible. Same with all chronic disease. Lots of treatments but no cures.

  6. Margics Posted on September 12, 2019 at 9:13 am

    Ye but Thomas I am disappointed cause you made vids about coffee being so helpful with studies and all and now when ppl followed your advice..now cut the coffee. You’re always contradicting yourself. It’s not the first time. Kinda “Woodstick face” 😁 saying so convincingly something and later the opposite..🙄

  7. Brad Helm Posted on September 12, 2019 at 10:46 am

    Excellent segment!

  8. steve cutright Posted on September 13, 2019 at 1:14 am

    Dude is a fake natty.. don’t be fooled